DAVID HWANG'S M.
BUTTERFLY
Consider how these stereotypes make their presence
felt in David Hwang's M. Butterfly, characterizing the
interactions between Gallimard and Song Liling. How does
Song play on Gallimard's sense of his own masculinity as
well as his stereotypes of Asian women? For instance, how do
Gallimard's past experiences with women influence his
behavior toward Song? Include in your freewrite at least one
quote.
Discuss the ways in which Hwang weaves his concerns
about imperialism, racism, and sexism into the play. Act
One, Scene Three, and Act Three, Scene Two, may prove
insightful. Do you agree with Hwang's portrayals? Why or why
not? (1) In Act One, Scene Three, Gallimard sits alone in
his prison cell and directly tells the audience that "In
order for you to understand what I did and why, I must
introduce you to my favorite opera: Madame Butterfly. By
Giacomo Puccini" (4-5). Why is the opera so central to
telling Galimard's story? How does Song's attitude about the
opera differ from Gallimard's? How does Song play on
Gallimard's notions about Asian women that were most likely
influenced by the play's portrayals? (2) Is Gallimard to be
more identified with Pinkerton or Butterfly? Explain your
response.
[Message #2 09:00:07 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tiffany Lee:
A powerful quote is on page 17 where Song basically is explaining how because the story Butterfly is based on an Asian woman and an American man, the basis of why the play is so good is directly related to her culture. Song says, " But because it's an Oriental who kills herself for a Westerner--ah!--you find it beautiful"(17) She compares the how the attitudes may have been different if the story was based on a "blonde homecoming queen [falling] in love with a short Japanese businessman..."(17) The stereotypes that Asian women are "submissive, exotic and subservient" are as enticing as the story line itself. Song really points out to Gallimard that the fact the story is based on an Asian woman giving up her life is what makes it especially tragic and beautiful. If it were turned around as in the example she provides, his reaction would be different. He might not understand why the blonde would give herself up like that for a man, much less an Asian man.
When I read this, I felt very ignorant to this detail that had so much effect on Gallimard or anyone's reaction really towards this story/play of Madame Butterfly. It seems Song is saying that it is more accepted and expected for an Asian woman to give up her life for an American man than the other way around.
[Message #4 09:04:30 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Cynthia Ho:
I think that Song knew what she/he was doing. Song first portrayed herself as a very strong woman, very independent. Song knew what Gallimard wants, his fantasies. "It's one of your fantasies, isn't it? The submissive Oriental woman and the cruel white man" (17). Song gave Gallimard the sense that she was a very strong person. "So much for protecting her in my big Western arms" (18). Then later in the story, she invited him to her apartment. She knew what he wants. She then scooted Gallimard out of her apartment sayng that this is not right. She knew that he wanted more. This will just made him more thirsty for her. The next time Gallimard went to her apartment, she made herself seems like she was very submissive. "Please...it all frightens me. I am modest Chinese girl" (40). If she was really all that "traditional" then she wouldn't of invited Gallimard to her apartment before. She knew that he wasn't very confident in himself, so she made him feel very wanted by writing letters to him saying that she wanted to see him. This boosted up his confidence. I think that the reason why Gallimard likes Song because she was the first woman who paid attention to him. Eventhough he has a wife already, he knew that he wasn't very attractive. She made him feel attractive. Another women, an Asian woman....he would never imagined that this would happen to him. He was a different man.....a man with confidence.
[Message #5 09:06:54 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tiffany Lee:
The whole interaction between the two in this scene is great--another powerful quote is: "It's one of your favorite fantasies, isn't it? The submissive Oriental woman and the cruel white man." (17)
Song refers to the Asian woman as the "submissive" (common generalization) "Oriental woman" (a politically incorrect reference)
[Message #6 09:07:30 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tiffany Lee:
Oh yay--we wrote the same quote just know cynthia! my bad!! =) good choice
[Message #7 09:09:02 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Joyce G:
"Men like that-they should be scratching at my door, begging to learn my secrets! For I, Rene Gallimard, you see, I have known, and been loved by...the Perfect Woman" (Hwang 4).
Gallimard seems to have this big ego that "he's the man." I see him to be this egotistical pig whom he thinks is loved by every woman and believes that he is every woman's dream. He seems to think that he can have any woman at anytime, anywhere and flaunts his "capabilities" for all to know. When he crosses paths with Song, I think he knows that he can have her and uses his "talents" to lure her in.
[Message #8 09:06:58 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Alla Marmysh:
n scene #4 Gallimard explains his fear of the women, "I' am afraid they'll say no -the girls" (8), and even refuses to go to strippers. But he is not affaid that Song will say him no sinse he sees her through the perspective that she is oriental woman.He think that asian women are demure and willing to sacrify themselves.He feels confident with Song
[Message #9 09:09:23 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Cynthia Ho:
I don't think that he was very confident in himself in the beginning of the story.
[Message #10 09:09:38 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Cynthia Ho:
Tiffany: thank you
[Message #11 09:10:11 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tiffany Lee:
Confidence seems to play a large role in the dynamics of the relationshiop between song and gallimard. as we talked about in class the quote that you stated joyce, he feels like he "won" a trophy when he got together with Song and perhaps that is the reason he becomes almost arrogant about his sexual conquest.
[Message #12 09:10:30 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tiffany Lee:
even though she is a man.
[Message #13 09:12:27 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Ed Weller:
Although Song is a woman of asian decent, she pounces on Gallimard when he praises her on her performance as Butterfly. "It's one of your favorite fantasies isn't it? The submissive Oriental woman and the cruel white man" (Hwang 17); this quote laced with a little sarcasm dictates how much she thinks of Gallimard and his ignorance, to her at least. Fumbling over his words, he tries to reconcile the discomfort by realizing what she meant. She was even so bold to say, "Expand your mind" (Hwang 17) to him in a conversation when he was complimenting her.
[Message #14 09:12:27 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Cynthia Ho:
She was the one who approached him in the first meeting.
[Message #15 09:15:50 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Ed Weller:
I agree...he did seem a little on the cautious side.
[Message #16 09:17:43 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Ed Weller:
But it seems a little weird that Gallimard could only gain some confidence when a woman took more of a stand and had a little more ATTITUDE than other women. Of course, this was because she was a he....hehehe. Spooky...
[Message #17 09:17:36 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tiffany Lee:
I think that was also somewhat touched on in the discussion tonight--he was excited because she was being dominant.
[Message #18 09:16:09 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Alla Marmysh:
She manipulate him in a way that when it come to intimasy she is claming that she is modest Chinese girl. That make him to say, "My poor little treasure"
[Message #19 09:19:41 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tiffany Lee:
It seems that Song knows his weaknesses and insecurities as a man (partly because he can relate) and also because Song knows what he may be stereotyping and expecting of Song as a woman. That is also how she manipulates his emotions and htoughts
[Message #20 09:20:31 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tiffany Lee:
Song seems to be playing off of his predictable reactions and thoughts.
[Message #21 09:20:55 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Cynthia Ho:
He got his confidence when she was vwriting those letters to him. Yeah...Song was a very smart man/woman.
[Message #23 09:21:58 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tiffany Lee:
it was her and the whole thought of her--winning her over--that made him confident.
[Message #24 09:24:06 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Joyce G:
Song seems to have the upperhand in this relationship.
[Message #25 09:22:55 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Cynthia Ho:
she let him think that way. she knew how to play the game.
[Message #26 09:24:58 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Ed Weller:
Yeah she knew how to play mind games because she was a....switch-hitter.
[Message #27 09:25:32 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Monique Dubief:
A man, especially if he feels he is devoid of any specialattractiveness, whether it be physical, intellectual or moral, still feels he deserves the best, a "Butterfly", a woman who will be and do exactly as he pleases,even though he knows he has very little to offer. Asian women are perceived by Gallimard as being totally accepting and grateful even when there is nothing to feel grateful about. This , to me, shows above all, his fear of Caucasian women. "The uglier the man, the greater the want." Also, Gallimard wants to be able to play a protector role and he is too insecure to play that role with women of his own culture and race. "Even I could protect her, take her home, pamper her until she smiled." One of Butterfly's attractive qualities
is her her'little or novoice", her "suffering", i.e. the fact that she appears diminished. Also Gallimard fantasizes that Asian women are capable of loving a man to death although there is nothing lovable about him; this makes the story "beautiful". Her "sacrifice' is praised although not questioned (Why would a woman love aman out of sacrifice?).
[Message #28 09:26:59 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Ed Weller:
I think a lot of women have had to sacrifice sometimes when they married. After all, I don't believe that there is a perfect man/woman out there, only our high expectations and standards. Oh yeah, there are men who have had to sacrifice out there too....
[Message #29 09:26:23 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tiffany Lee:
I think that marriage should be about COMPROMISE and not exactly SACRIFICE always.
[Message #30 09:29:55 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Ed Weller:
But what about all those picture brides who married a guy and didn't know a durn thing about him?
[Message #31 09:28:37 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Cynthia Ho:
I think that everyone sacrafice something in the realtionship to compensate the other. It's not all that bad. It's a two people thing. If one partner only sacrifice and the other is just benefiting from it, then there's a problem.
[Message #32 09:28:09 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Karen Wong:
To add to Joyce's comment (#24), Song does seem to have the upper- hand, that is, until Gallimard starts to play hard to get. Gallimard comments, "...she keeps our meetings so shor-- perhaps fifteen, twenty minutes at most. So I am left each week with a thirst which is intensified..."(27).
[Message #33 09:29:48 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tiffany Lee:
what about them?
[Message #34 09:32:29 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Ed Weller:
True Cyn. Tiff: they had to sacrifice the thought of marrying someone with whom they might have fallen in love with.
[Message #35 09:31:24 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tiffany Lee:
Karen--it's like that chico debarge song: "if i treat you like a dog, then you want to stay..if i treat you like a lady then you wanna walk away..i don't understand.."
[Message #36 09:31:43 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tiffany Lee:
Ed--I see
[Message #37 09:34:21 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Monique Dubief:
In response to Tiffany, message #17, let us be a little indulgent towards Gallimard and his love prejudices. Is not the mecanism of attraction a certain mixture of domination/being dominated (whether we like to admit it or not, with-when it is healthier- a little bit of comfort and friendliness. But there might be some "power" game in any type of attraction . (People take turns, that is all)
[Message #38 09:34:28 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tiffany Lee:
well I was kind of making a connection between today's classroom discussion and the play. It seemed that men wanted to be "dominated" or "dominate" these "petite, submissive" asian women. I think it definitely entices a man when a woman is dominating and almost even mean!
[Message #39 09:35:03 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tiffany Lee:
it makes them want you more because they think you find them utterly disgusting.
[Message #2 08:57:44 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tinoifili Elisara:
I was really looking foward to reading the rest of this book. But now that I know some what of the end, I can see why Song acted the way she, or he did. The quote that caught my eye was said by Gallimard. Gallimard stated, " Did you hear the way she talked about Western women? Much differently than the first night. She does-she feels inferior to them-and to me" (Hwang pg. 31). This is a stereotype that I had no knowledge of. Asian women feeling inferior to Western women and men. This influenced Gillmard because he no longer had to feel as if he did not have all control. By that I mean, Gillmard thought or knew that Asian women felt inferior to Western women and men. Thus putting him (Gillmard) in the drivers seat with full control.
[Message #3 08:57:41 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
rosyn park:
Unfortunately, I don't have my book with me so I can't really cite from the text. But what was discussed in class, the ads from the Guardian, and how Asians, whether male or female, are stereptyped, really sheds insight on the relationship between Song and Gallimard. I suppose that Song uses his/her knowledge of Gallimard and feeds his stereotypical views. Song uses the characterisitics of being submissive and shy and quiet and such in order to slyly deceive Gallimard. Song allows Gallimard to play the masculine role in order to divert future complications for instance with the double identity.
[Message #4 08:57:54 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Bette McDonnell:
Song plays into Gallimard's stereotypical view of Asian women in M. Butterfly, David Hwang (30). In Scene 10 during the discussion of Song's dress, Song: "I don't know if it looks right on me." Gallimard begins to protest when Song interrupts him to say, "You are from France. You see so many beautiful women." Here she is putting herself in the inferior position comparing herself with European women and making herself out to be less beautiful or sophisticated. The scene proceeds with Song explicitly stating her condition, " . . . . in the end, I fail. A small, frightened heart beats too quickly and gives me away. Monsieur Gallimard, I'm a Chinese girl. I've never . . . " (31) Song acts coy and nervous as if she didn't quite know what came over her, as if this behaviour (inviting him to her room) was totally outside her usual mode. Gallimard loves it! Gallimard: "I like you the way you are right now." He likes that she put herself in the subservient position and then that she acted quite abashed at her own (Western-like) behaviour. Here Song, I assume, deliberately gave him what he wanted.
[Message #5 08:54:58 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Dandy Wong:
it appears that song is antagonizing gallimard by reversing the roles of the asian woman. she is dominating and he seems to enjoy it. in act 1 scene 8, she is totally contradicting his every word and he seems to let her do it. she even goes as far as insulting what a white woman has to offer, something that is unheard of from an asian woman. as song says, "Clubs in China filled with pasty, big-thighed white women, while thousands of slender lotus blossoms wait just outside the door?" (Hwang, 22). she is playing the strings of desire perfectly so his wanting of her distracts him from how she is treating him.
[Message #6 09:00:01 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
rosyn park:
Tino, the quote that you chose is really interesting. I can somehow relate to the view that is stated in the quote in that as an Asian female, sometimes I do feel inferior to them. They have that whole height thing that I can't go up against.
[Message #7 09:00:39 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tinoifili Elisara:
Rosyn, I see and understand what your talking about with the double role. Song must have been a great undercover agent to not let his masculant ego get in the way of his task.
[Message #8 09:02:46 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tinoifili Elisara:
Bette, I agree that Song did give Gllimard what he wanted. She actually gives him more then what he bargains for at the end.
[Message #9 08:59:09 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Dandy Wong:
yeah, ill say tino
[Message #10 09:04:34 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tinoifili Elisara:
Dandy, is it really unheard of, of a Asian lady to insult what a white women has to offer? Just curious!
[Message #11 09:01:45 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Dandy Wong:
yeah, it is unheard of but as a way to "turn the tables" she says it as though it were the truth from the beginning of time
[Message #12 09:06:06 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tinoifili Elisara:
Rosyn, what's the phrase most Asian women use, "Good things come in small packages"? Remeber, never let them see you sweat:)
[Message #13 09:06:39 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
rosyn park:
Never.
[Message #14 09:07:02 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Bette McDonnell:
I read recently that it is more common for Asian women in Asian countries to speak assertively, even loudly as compared with how American women are taught to speak: quietly, softly - this being considered feminine. I was surprised because even though I lived in Japan for a while I didn't realize that this was the case. Perhaps what I read pertained to Chinese or Vietnamese women. I (as you all may have noticed) was not brought up to speak softly, quietly. It wasn't one of the things the Irish considered very important! Can some of you enlighten me regarding how Asian women are typically taught to speak? And is the quiet, hushed voice an American adaptation?
[Message #15 09:04:32 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Euphemia Li:
Gallimard is not a very attractive guy, as he said, "where I took a vow renouncing love. No fantasy woman would ever want me, so yes, I would settle for a qquick leap up the career ladder. Passion, I banish, and in its place - practicality" (14). Although he chose his career instead of love, he still has some fantasy about woman. He repeatly mentioned that Madame Butterfly is a very beautiful story because she sacrifice herself for her lover. Song truly understand he has such bias about the Chinese woman. That's why most of time, Song's behavior are matching with Gillimard's desire. She knows how to take advantage on Gallimard's fantansy sterertype. As she said, "But a woman, especially a delicate Oriental woman - we always go where we please" (22). Song prentend she was a modest Chinese girl, she souldn't express her love to a man. She even said "it was my first experience" (34). She protrays herself as a obedient, innocent and helpless lady in front of him. She is ready to sacrifice herself for him, Chinese woman's major responsibility is to please her lover.
[Message #16 09:08:21 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Sean Dizon:
Gallimard is a happily married man who cheats on his wife of seven or eight years.to his wife Helga. Gallimard usually is not a flirting type man but ends up having a conversation with Song which leads to a relationship. She offers to let him watch her perform at her operas. Song and Renee later go to her flat and have another conversation. It is sort of a mutual friendship as Song calls Gallimard a friend."When a woman calls a man her friend shes calling him a eunuch or a homosexual" (35). Later Gallimard asks her is she is his butterfly. "Are you my butterfly?" (39). She says yes and their relationship takes off from there. Gallimard looks at Song as though she can please him and will be there for him although she is in experiecned. "I am your treasure. Though inexperienced, I am not ignorant . They teach us things, our mothers, about pleasing a man" (40). Song seemed to be very much interested in Gallimard and when he stopped coming to the opera she wrote him a letter asking him why he was not there. Gallimards friend even predicted that Rrenee would be meeting a woman like Song. "Somehwo I knew I'd end up in thesuburbs working for Renault and you'd be in the orient picking exotic women off the trees" (32).
[Message #17 09:11:08 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tinoifili Elisara:
Euphemia, maybe it's more of self esteem problem with Gallimard than him being unattractive. Not that I would check him out or anything like that.
[Message #18 09:09:12 PM, Tuesday, March 28, 2000]
sergei marmysh:
Gillmard thinks that asian women are inferior in comparison to western, that they are submissive and silent, that gives him feel of the men's power (because deep inside Gillmar is afraid of women). Song, in her turn, knows what Gillmar's ideal of women is and behaves as such, so that he is with Song, he feels himself as a powerful man.
[Message #19 09:11:16 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Sean Dizon:
Gallimard isnt a very confident man but Song gives him self esteem making him seem attractive while everybody things he is ugly.
[Message #20 09:12:59 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
rosyn park:
Bette, I think nowadays, most asian women are not hushed. They are stronger and louder in their wants and opinions. I think it is more of a traditional aspect that most of these stereotypical characteristics are based on. But in a weird, confusing way, there are asian girls out there who play the role and I am sure that some even try to use it to their advantage in whatever way that may be. It's really funny sometimes because in certain instances my mother has tried to "quiet" me when maybe I am laughing too loud or show attitude in defensive situations. I think the term she uses is that "it's not lady-like."
[Message #21 09:13:28 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tinoifili Elisara:
Sean, I guess his happy marriage wasn't so happy after all. Maybe Gillmard needed a real "man".
[Message #22 09:09:30 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Dandy Wong:
bette, i think it is kind of an imposed stereotype that americans have given to asian women mistakenly as a sign of respect. for a stranger to see an asian women for the first time is interesting because she is reluctant to speak loudly in fear of offending teh "new friend". it is more of a courtesy than a real custom that asian women are quite. besides, if you were to go to hong kong, you would notice that all the chinese, woman inperticular, speak at the top of their lungs to someone who is sitting at an arms length. the ideal of a quite and submissive asian woman is an imposed fiction that is as american as apple pie. it is not a custom or tradition for a chinese woman, especially if she speaks cantonese, to be quiet.
[Message #23 09:12:15 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Sean Dizon:
I guess whatever makes him happy
[Message #24 09:10:49 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Euphemia Li:
I think Gallimard is not a confident guy, he is not attractive and smart. That's why he is looking for his butterfly who is willing to sacrifice for him
[Message #25 09:15:46 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tinoifili Elisara:
Sergei, I wouldn't say all men need their women to be submissive to feel men's power. Some women like it when women are in control. Ask Dandy, he told me so.
[Message #26 09:14:28 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
akiko vela:
A white male like Gallimard, Asian women would be the perfect mistress. The society is making up these stereotypes about genders and races. Unfortunately, Asian female falls into the category of tiny, sexy, boytoy type of things. The image could have been come from somebody's real experience, and also movies and television programs. I'm sure you've seen a movie scene such as "wanna date? Me love you long time. Only five dalla--me love you long time." Asian women are white men's sexual fantasy. Asian female are fragile, need to be protected, like to be told what to do--none of the qualities which white femal carries. Asian women derives the loving feelings of white male. White male or any men would like to dominate the relationship if they could. They see that's possible with Asian women, but they will not success with white female. They are too tough, and opiniony.
Gillimard's first sexual experience surely influences the criterias he wishes in his partnership. He likes the submissive Asian women--he finds them very atractive and feminine.
His experience goes like this.
My arms were pinned to the dirt.
I looked up, and there was this women bouncing up
and down on my loins.
Screaming, and breaking off the branches all around me,
and pounding my butt up and down into the dirt (33).
I'm assuming that his first experience was with Western women. Her name was Isabelle. He wants his women to be more less agressive, so that he can lead. He wants to be the driver. He wants to have sense of feeling that he will provide her happiness.
[Message #27 09:14:29 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Euphemia Li:
The story happened during 1960 to 1970. I think time is changing, women's status is getting better. But when I look at the ads that Karen gave to us. I think people haven't change their stereotype about chinese women.
[Message #28 09:19:06 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tinoifili Elisara:
Euphemia, do you think that Gillmard had an arranged marriage, being that he is ugly?
[Message #29 09:18:23 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Sean Dizon:
I think people still view asian women as tiny, powerless, passive, soft-spoken, and like to be dominated by the bigger male which is being portrayed in the book.
[Message #30 09:16:28 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Dandy Wong:
euphemia, i think that times are changing byt that it is only the indivdual who cannot overcome those stereotypes. the media is providing a forum for this social change and it is only matter of time that it starts to effect the entire population, at least on the west coast.
[Message #31 09:17:18 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Euphemia Li:
I believe that he married Helga because she can help him on his career,
[Message #32 09:20:43 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Sean Dizon:
Helga was older than Gallimard when he married her.
[Message #33 09:18:44 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Euphemia Li:
I agree with you Dandy, but the media always give the audience some wrong image about the Asian women.
[Message #34 09:22:23 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
rosyn park:
do you guys think that there are asian girls out there who play the part and take on those outdated, stereotypical characteristics? When all these stereotypes are portrayed in the media, could there be those out there who buy into it and allow themselves to become what others assume they are?
[Message #35 09:18:37 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Dandy Wong:
yeah, you're right euphemia
[Message #36 09:23:15 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tinoifili Elisara:
Akiko, I also think that white women have it hard to. It took them years just to have the right to vote. Most of this countries laws and constitution only applied to men when written and I think when they applied it to women, that gave them the right to freedom of speech and being very opiniony. Otherwise I would believe that they would be in the same boat as Asian women. Just my opinion though:)
[Message #37 09:19:56 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Euphemia Li:
At least Helga is not the type of woman that Gallimard desire
[Message #38 09:22:01 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Sean Dizon:
and the only reason he married her was because Helgas father was the ambassador to Australia"hearing that brought me to the altar" (14).
[Message #39 09:24:36 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tinoifili Elisara:
Euphemia, I agree that they haven't changed there stereotypes of women, but it seems as if they added them to men as well.
[Message #40 09:24:25 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Bette McDonnell:
Dandy, thanks for responding but I don't think you realized I was saying that I had read that Asian women in Asian countries spoke assertively, loudly contrary to popular belief. I don't remember where I read it. Thanks for confirming that.
[Message #41 09:26:30 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tinoifili Elisara:
Dandy, I agree with what your saying about how the individual cannot over come the stereotypes. Who do you think is to blame, the media or the individual? or maybe neither?
[Message #42 09:22:51 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Dandy Wong:
rosyn, if there are still those asian woman who add support to the "typical asian female" stereotype have not really been able to assimilate into american society. they still live in teh little world that is provided for them by their parents and have no "real world experience". today there is plenty of asian woman who defy that in america, take for instance, the movie "Romeo Must Die", there is a woman who is fist fighting with a Jet Li that provides challenges teh stereotype.
[Message #43 09:23:28 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Euphemia Li:
That's true. I think most of the Asian guy here are pretty sportive and tough. They are no longer weak and small. Don't you guys think some of the Asian American literatures also write for the market, not really reflect the culture?
[Message #44 09:27:08 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tinoifili Elisara:
What did Helga get out of the marriage?
[Message #45 09:23:19 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Dandy Wong:
in part both...in all everybody.
[Message #46 09:27:32 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tinoifili Elisara:
The media gives a wrong image about everyone.
[Message #47 09:26:41 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Sean Dizon:
The American male thinks of the asian female as exotic because some Asian countries have a high prostitution rate like Thailand.
[Message #48 09:25:44 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Euphemia Li:
I think american males believe asian female as exotic because they thought Asian woman would do everything to please their partners.
[Message #49 09:27:02 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
akiko vela:
I agree, Sean. Although it's really disturbing scene to be shown on TV and stuff. It's all media's fault.
[Message #50 09:29:34 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tinoifili Elisara:
Rosyn, yes I do believe that there is Asian women who play the part of the stereotype. But I think that it is totally their fault when they do that. We live in a country where everyone is suppose to be created equally. When you start to believe in streotypes or what not, you just decrease your equallity.
[Message #51 09:29:37 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
rosyn park:
yeah, I see what your saying and you have a point. some asian girl out there who buys in to the stereotypes and allows herself to be perceived in that way is a "little girl" still being taken care of by her parents.
[Message #52 09:28:04 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
akiko vela:
good point tino!
[Message #53 09:29:47 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Bette McDonnell:
Rosyn, yes, I think so just as other non-Asian women assume other roles because they believe it will buy them acceptance/love.
[Message #54 09:27:19 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Dandy Wong:
the media is to blame for continuing the stereotype and not having the guts to tell a different story. not wanting to be too politically incorrect. like not headlining a case that could be considered too "ethnic". whille on the other hand, people produce bigots. take a family in teh south that conditions teh children to harbor the same beliefs of asians, especially japanese, during WWII. that just regenerates the bigotry in the u.s.
[Message #55 09:28:33 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Euphemia Li:
Everyone has the right to choose his or her own life, if they can accept such stereotype, they also have to take up all the consequences.
[Message #56 09:32:16 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
rosyn park:
Tino, I think that girls who portray themselves in that way are fully aware of their actions, totally. But I also think that there are those girls that use the stereotypes in order to be treated in a certain manner such as being fragile so they can be taken care of and guarded, etc.
[Message #57 09:33:32 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
rosyn park:
I think that the media is to blame for everything. Down with the media!
[Message #58 09:31:19 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
akiko vela:
Rosyn, I heard about that about blonde hair girls. Am I stereotyping?
[Message #59 09:33:54 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
rosyn park:
I am just kidding...kinda.
[Message #60 09:32:49 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Sean Dizon:
Every race, culture, nationality has some sort of stereotype.
[Message #61 09:30:38 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Dandy Wong:
yeah sean, that is totally correct
[Message #62 09:31:14 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Euphemia Li:
I agree with you Sean. Just be ourselves
[Message #63 09:35:20 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
rosyn park:
Akiko, I don't believe that you are stereotyping just as long as you know that if you apply that stereotype to all blond-haired girls and pre-judge them, then you would be.
[Message #64 09:35:39 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tinoifili Elisara:
Yes I agree Dandy, but do you believe everything you read or hear. Everyone has a choice and if they choose to believe what they hear or see, then in my opinion, that's their fault.
[Message #65 09:33:43 PM, Tuesday, March 28, 2000]
sergei marmysh:
replay for message#25 Tinoifili, those women are probably lesbians, I think.
[Message #66 09:33:43 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
akiko vela:
What?
[Message #67 09:36:33 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tinoifili Elisara:
Rosun, good point Rosyn. All those gold diggers out there.j/k
[Message #68 09:35:56 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Bette McDonnell:
Yes, Dandy, I agree the media often teaches racism and bigotry. Racism is learned as Boman Desai's, The Thicket tells us. How can we unlearn it? Practice, practice, practice . . . . we are all "racist" to some degree, I think. Do you?
[Message #69 09:34:00 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Euphemia Li:
Yes, that's right. Sometimes we also stereotype the others.
[Message #70 09:33:49 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Dandy Wong:
yes, i do believe we harbor some racism in our blood, it is hard not to
[Message #71 09:38:28 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Tinoifili Elisara:
Sorry sergei, i meant to say men
[Message #72 09:34:49 PM, Wednesday, March 29, 2000]
Dandy Wong:
but the trick is to realize that we do have racism in our blood and as you said, practice, pracitce, to unlearn that
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[Message #2 09:36:37 PM, Wednesday, April 05, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Song hits the point home during Gallimard's trial, when she says, "The West has sort of an international rape mentality towards the East" (82). Rape, remember, is not about intimacy, but rather about power. In this case, the West seeks to exercise its power and authority over the East, similar to the way that a man would try to wield power over a women through threats of harm. The West sees itself as being dominant, and if we were to further analyze this analogy, than the East is getting f*cked over, exploited.
[Message #3 09:29:46 PM, Wednesday, April 05, 2000]
Tiffany Lee:
Hwang reveals in many ways his attitudes and concrens about imperialism, racism and sexism through his play. I think that Hwang's portrayals carry a lot of weight within them because through his characters, the circumstances, we can explore the reasons why he takes a certain stance on them. for example, in act three scene one, through the arguenment between song and the judge we can observe the attitudes about asians. "The West has sort of an international rape mentality towards the east."(82) Through these conversations we see what Hwang is really trying to say about his stance. Especially in this particular arguement, Hwang addresses all of the generalizations and misconceptions that "Westerners" may harbor about asians.
[Message #4 09:34:59 PM, Wednesday, April 05, 2000]
akiko vela:
Gallimard: I'm not your little one!
Song: My mistake. It's I who am your little one, right? (86).
There are always assumptions that female are the little one who need to be protected and helped by male. Another words, female are useless by themselves. Male assumes and fantacise such myths. Male actually enforce the ridicurous myths. So, there Gallimard complains that he is not her little one. Song is making a sarcastic comment back at him. Because he (she) feels Gallimard's and most other mens' fantasies of providing happiness for helpless female are nonsence and out dated. In fact, Song was the one stiring the wheel in their 20 years of relationship by acting to be his dream woman. Hwang used this irony for his testimony against society's standard of male being superior to female. In this story, Gallimard, the male makes big fool of himself.
[Message #5 09:44:46 PM, Wednesday, April 05, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Tiffany,what did you make of that quote, and the other quotes that follow that one?
[Message #6 09:39:53 PM, Thursday, April 06, 2000]
Sean Dizon:
Hwang uses Gallimard to show that he is a person who carries out his fantasy in being superior to the quiet, submissive Song. In act one Pinkerton plans on marrying a woman but not taking her to America. "Not like American girls. It's true what they say about Oriental girls. They want to be treated bad" (6). He seems as though he just wants to use her and then take off from there. Hwang points out a bit of racism in that the white man is far superior and can have anybody he wants. Hwangs portrayals have alot to do with cultural criticism, pop culture and advertisement which are examples of how asian women such as Song are viewed. Many people from the West view the East as less powerful and that they are stronger. "The west thinks of itself as masculine- big guns, big industry, big money so the east is feminine, weak, and poor" (83).
[Message #7 09:41:21 PM, Wednesday, April 05, 2000]
akiko vela:
Tiffany, Good quote. This Asian author Hwang, through this play, is speaking his own voice about the unfair misconceptions about the Westerners and Asians.
[Message #9 09:46:50 PM, Wednesday, April 05, 2000]
Nick Bundy:
Act Three, Scene 1 p.83 "The West thinks of itself as masculine-big guns, big industry, big money-so the East is feminine-weak, delicate, poor . . . but good at art, and full of inscrutable wisdom-the feminine mystique."
I think Hwang's portrayals are definitely valid. He has a point about the feminine mystique. After that quote, Hwang continues by saying that Oriental women want to be submissive to foreign men, or so Americans think. I don't think Asian women care much about making the best house wives, more about necessity v. extravagance.
[Message #10 09:43:28 PM, Wednesday, April 05, 2000]
Tiffany Lee:
Karen, I felt that song was in a way, summarizing what hwang's messages were, unveiliing all of the misconceptions, etc. another quote that i addressed in the last class meeting was "Her mouth says no, but her eyes say yes. The west believes the east, deep down, wants to be dominated because a woman can't think for herself"(83) He is using a comparison of men and women as west vs. east. the attitudes about the women are also those held up politically regarding the country itself. it is a very powerful exchange, it is like the judge is helping to filter out and clarify for the audience, what the whole relationship between gallimard and song represented, why it happened, why it worked.
[Message #11 09:54:23 PM, Wednesday, April 05, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Akiko and company, Gallimard not only wants to be the provider, he also wants to be the woman to fully submit, which is what Song is more than cognizant of, "'All he wants is for her to submit. Once a woman submits, a man is always ready to become 'generous'"(62). That very calculated move on Song's part, pretending to give birth to his baby, makes Gallimard so enamored of her that he'll never go back, "...it is also possible that at this point she could have said, could have done...anything, and I would have adored her still" (67).
[Message #12 09:49:06 PM, Wednesday, April 05, 2000]
sergei marmysh:
Through image of butterfly Hwang shows stereotype of woman, "...Butterfly, is a feminine ideal, beautiful and brave." Hwang compares imperialism with sexual imperialism, in his play the author challenges sexism that assumes theory that men are superior beings
[Message #13 09:55:22 PM, Wednesday, April 05, 2000]
Karen Wong:
On a larger scale, Nick and company, what did you make of the "big guns" quote? Why mention big guns?
[Message #14 09:48:37 PM, Thursday, April 06, 2000]
Sean Dizon:
With big guns, it represents you have power and authority to do anything.
[Message #15 09:49:53 PM, Wednesday, April 05, 2000]
Tiffany Lee:
re: big guns--the whole interaction between gallimard and renee (the other other mistress) the addressing of "big guns" or libidos of american men is addressed.the whole attitude about men and warfare is alike
[Message #16 09:53:22 PM, Wednesday, April 05, 2000]
Nick Bundy:
I don't know, maybe to fully drive the point home of who is more dominant. East v. West. And who really is dominant? Seems that the West has egg on its face after this scandal.
[Message #17 09:52:27 PM, Wednesday, April 05, 2000]
Monique Dubief:
I have a general discomfort reading this play, perhaps because I have not read plays in a good while; I realize that the author wants me to see Gallimard's adoration for Song Liling as a ridiculous charade; on the other end, I believe that Gallimard's behaviour is one rather typical to all people in love, whether they are men or women, regardless also of their cultural origins. One falls in love for an image or images one has of someone else. Is not clothing as sexually attractive as nudity (whether it be a kimono or anything else; although it is clear that, in his French culture -which does not think to highlly of homosexuality- Gallimard would not have let himseld fall in love for Armani slacks -. In other words, there is an inherent deception to the act of falling in love. At best, it is a mutual complicit deception. To me, this play is, above all, about the power of illusions.
It is easy to "downgrade" Gallimard. Let us scratch the surface of our own illusions. Also, are those illusions always nocive? I am not sure...
(I realize I have not discussed that which I am supposed to discuss but something else instead. It is because I do not find the character and behaviour of Song Liling plausible.
1) In Act One, Scene Three, Gallimard sits alone in his prison cell and directly tells the audience that "In order for you to understand what I did and why, I must introduce you to my favorite opera: Madame Butterfly. By Giacomo Puccini" (4-5). Why is the opera so central to telling Galimard's story? How does Song's attitude about the opera differ from Gallimard's? How does Song play on Gallimard's notions about Asian women that were most likely influenced by the play's portrayals?
2) Is Gallimard to be more identified with Pinkerton or Butterfly? Explain your response.
[Message #2 09:35:11 PM, Wednesday, April 05, 2000]
Alla Marmysh:
The opera is central in the story becouse Gallimard identifies him self with the characters of the story and the storyline of the book is paralleled to the plot of madame Batterfly. Gallimard likes in the play the devotion love of the Butterfly(Cio-Cio-San for Pinkerson. He considers her a "Perfect woman" and dreams about such woman. Song's behavior suits to the Gallimard's fantasy. In her letters she tells how how she is willing to sacrifes for him including her shame.
In the begining of the play Gallimard identifies himself with Pinkerton, but at the end it seems that he is the one who suffers from his love relationship and victim of this relationtion and that makes him similar to Butterfly.
[Message #3 09:43:30 PM, Wednesday, April 05, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Gallimard can be identified more with Pinkerton than Butterfly, at least initially. He suffers from such delusion that he even refers to Song as his Butterfly, fulfilling his fantasies of having the upper hand in a relationship. But at the end, Song is not the one who commits suicide for lost love, but rather Gallimard, "My name is Rene Gallimard-- also known as Madame Butterfly" (93). How is he similar to Butterfly beyond this very dramatic gesture? He's been duped, for one, hopeful that his love will return to him. And he continues to embrace his delusions, refusing to acknowledge reality even when it comes knocking on his door," Love warped my judgment, blinded my eyes, rearranged the very lines on my face..."(92).
[Message #4 09:39:17 PM, Wednesday, April 05, 2000]
Susan Zavertnik:
The opera is one where Gallimard can imagine himself as the "not so goodlooking" American that gets the Asian girl. His fantasy. He comes and sweeps this "helpless" girl off her feet. She is the typical stereotype, quiet, graceful, and only in love with this American man. She denounces everything for her man. Gallimard is so in love with this opera that he is looking for that woman to be in his life. He feels that he can associate with Pinkerton in many ways.
Song on the other hand doesn't think it is as "beautiful" as Gallimard believes it to be. She doesn't like the idea of playing a Japanese after the attrocities they did to the Chinese. Not to mention the character is so pathetic. She points out to Gallimard that if the roles were reversed, he wouldn't think it to be such a beautiful story.
I think that Gallimard is more like Butterfly. Being blinded by a fantasy.
[Message #5 09:41:17 PM, Wednesday, April 05, 2000]
Euphemia Li:
Actually the opera, Madame Butterfly, is Gallimard's favor opera and also his fantansy. He is looking for his own Madame Butterfly throughout this play. As he mentioned, "Are you my Butterfly? I want from you honesty. There should be nothing false between us. No false pride" (39). Song also prentended she is the fantasy women that Gallimard is looking for. The whole opera is the stereotype about the gender role of Asian women. Song just take advantage of such kind of stereotype to pursuit what he wants.
Song's attitude about this opera is completely different from Gallimard's preception. She thought this is only some unrealistic fantasy that the westerner towards Asian women. On the other hand, she notices that Gallimard is crazy about all these images protrayed by this opera. That's why she just follow the script of this opera and trap Gallimard. From then on, Gallimard is no long identified as Pinkerton. He already became Song's Butterfly. Song has the power to read his mind. At the end of the play, he even killed himself, that is a sacrifice for his lover.
[Message #6 09:37:15 AM, Thursday, April 06, 2000]
Cynthia Ho:
1. The opera is so central to telling Gallimard's story because that was the similar story to his story, but with a twist in the end. I guess if Gallimard didn't go and see the play, then this whole incident wouldn't had happened. Song's attitude of the opera is that she didn't like the play, the whole theme. Gallimard on the other hand likes the theme. He found it very beautiful. "...I was about to say it's the first time I've seen the beauty of the story" (17). Song was very observant of what he likes.
Gallimard: I usually don't like Butterfly.
Song: I can't blame you in the least.
Gallimard: I mean, the story-
Song: Ridiculous.
Gallimard: I like the story, but ... what?
Song: Oh, you like it? (16)
Then at her apartment, she was trying to act very innocent and pure. She also sent him letters to make him feel very wanted. She was doing everything that he dreamed of, his fantasy.
2. Gallimard is more identified as being Butterfly. Gallimard thought of himself being Pinkerton in the beginning. Then at the end he realized that he was actually more like the character Butterfly. He gave everything up for his love, but in the end, he felt betrayed.
[Message #7 09:48:08 PM, Wednesday, April 05, 2000]
Dandy Wong:
the story is essential because it is exactly what gallimard is doing. gallimard/pinkerton is gaining the love of a non-american girl who falls into the steroetypical catergory of a submissive and non-confrontational asian woman. that those asian woman "want to be treated bad!" (Hwang, 6). he sees himself as the light of her life. but on the contrary, song's attiutde about the opera is that of disgust.
[Message #8 09:46:34 PM, Wednesday, April 05, 2000]
Euphemia Li:
I guest most of the Asian cannot agree with Madame Butterfly this opera. Only a stereotype about the attitude of Asian women
[Message #9 09:45:39 AM, Thursday, April 06, 2000]
Cynthia Ho:
Euphemia:Yeah, but the funny thing about this play was that it was a man playing a women role to seduce another man.
[Message #10 09:50:44 PM, Wednesday, April 05, 2000]
Susan Zavertnik:
most american men think that asian women are "demure and exotic" especially during the sixities. asian women were supposed to be quiet.
[Message #11 09:52:58 PM, Wednesday, April 05, 2000]
Euphemia Li:
I don't understand how come the Chinese government send a guy for this special mission. Or as Song said, "Because only a man know how a woman is supposed to act" (63) Do you guys have any idea??
[Message #12 09:49:43 AM, Thursday, April 06, 2000]
Cynthia Ho:
Euphemia: That is odd isn't it? What Song said do have some truth in it. Only a man knows what a man wants.
[Message #13 09:51:17 PM, Wednesday, April 05, 2000]
Alla Marmysh:
Gallimard is similar to Butterfly by the enormous sacrifising and loss they both underwent. Sometimes I think that Gallimard new that it was as a man an object of his affection but the illusion of being loved and fulfilling own dream. He creates for himself the reallity he wanted.