mbutterfly

English 110 Interchange Discussion:
David Hwang's "M. Butterfly"

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Prompt:In class, we talked about prevalent Asian stereotypes: exotic, sensual, effeminate, subservient. Now consider how these stereotypes make their presence felt in David Hwang's M. Butterfly, characterizing the interactions between Gallimard and Song Liling. For instance, how do Gallimard's past experiences with women influence his behavior toward Song? And how does Song play on Gallimard's sense of his own masculinity as well as his stereotypes of Asian women? Include in your response at least one quote along with its page number according to proper MLA format.

10: 10 Class

11:10 Class

Irises

Madrones

Lupines

Oaks

Poppies

Redwoods

10:10 Irises

[Message #2 10:44:01 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Karen Wong:

Gallimard is everything that Marc and Pinkerton are not; rather than being a piggish lout who nevertheless has sway over women, Gallimard does not appear to have this "charisma." When he was younger, he avoided social situations that involved women, such as the time when Marc invites him to join in with this seeming orgy. And even his first sexual situation was prearranged by Marc; who knows if the sexual encounter was one of mistaken identity. Song Liling, therefore, is able to tap into his insecurities about his masculinity. She plays the part of a coy girl completely enamored of him not just as a man, but a white man, "We [Asian women] have always held a certain fascination for you Caucasian men, have we not?"(628) She tries to elevate him in his own ideas, that he is the ultimate prize. Even the way she addresses this point can be considered conventionally feminine; rather than pointing it out as fact, she poses it as a question.

[Message #3 10:42:37 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

kendrick lee:

Gallimard's past ezperiences wth women were nothing to get excited about. Gallimard never had that much luck with the opposite sex. He was to nice, to shy and to afraid of rejection to get enough courage to be like his womanizer friend Marc. In a dream where his friend Marc is talking to him Marc says, "All your life you've waited for a beautifu l girl who would lay down for you. All your life you've smiled like a saint when it's happened to every other man you know. And you seee them in magazines and you see them in movies. And you wonder, what's wrong with me? Will anyone beautiful ever want me? As the years pass, your hair this and you struggle to hold on to even your hopes. Stop strugglingRene. The wait is over. (Page 630) Now that some "woman" finally threw herself in front of him, he wanted to experience the power that Marc constantly told him about.

Before Galimard had these dreams/conversations with Marc, he was pretty much acted like a decent guy around song. However his curiosity about being like his friend eventually got the better of him. After visiting Song for many weeks, and being invited to her room, he just stops seeing her. She writes him letters, but he doesn't respond. After 8 weeks or so, he see's her again, and they get all romantic. His experiment dealing with power toward women worked.

Song did nothing but get him thinking, and make him feel like more of a man. This is probably why Gallimard had an attraction to her.

[Message #4 10:44:44 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Marc Johnson:

I would have to say that Gallimard's past experience's influences his behavior with Song because Gallimard thinks that he can do whatever he wants with women. He treats them like objects and toys instead of as people. I don't even understand why he got married if he's just going to have mistresses. I find that most guys do think this way in one form or another. Men think that they're superior and that women are inferior and here for the man's pleasure. I think that the culture has a lot to do with what Gallimard thinks about women. I'm sure that he saw his dad treat his mom a certain way and saw that men have most of the good jobs and all these things just got embedded into his brain. Of course, it was up to him to decide how he should treat women.

Song is very good on manipulating Gallimard because Song conforms into what Gallimard thinks. Even Gallimard has a vision on how things are suppose to be in the Orient because he says, "I have a vision. Of the Orient." (pg. 669). Gallimard's eyes have remained closed for so long that he is only now beginning to see the truth but yet he still denys it. Not that I blame him because he's been living one hell of a lie.

[Message #5 10:45:18 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

cheyenne satyna:

Gallimard's past experience has been very limited as he sees himself as very undesirable. He chose a loveless marriage as he had given up hope of attaining a beautiful loving wife. When he sees Song performing "Butterfly" it seems that fantasy and reality begin to overlap. His vision of what a "beautiful and loving" woman becomes crystallized in Song. His manhood is stimulated. We all have a need to feel needed and Gallimard's own need to feel needed is fulfilled in his belief that he can protect her. Her smallness, "the grace, the delicacy…I believed this girl. I believed her suffering. I wanted to take her in my arms-so delicate, even I could protect her, take her home, pamper her until she smiled" (625). Gallimard had created a way to feel like a "real" man. He unconsciously was following stereotypes of what constitutited a "Perfect Woman". Song was petite, delicate, graceful and attentive. The fantasy of the play that Song was performing reinforced these attributes and also subservient, faithful love.

Song played on these aspects in his relationship with Gallimard. He new from the beginning that Gallimard was mesmerized by his performance and I believe on some level he knew that the line between fantasy and reality had been obscured for Gallimard. He knows and plays on Gallimard's need to feel like a man. In one scene Song is using the stereotype of being innocent and modest when he says "a small, frightened heart beats too quickly and gives me away" (634). Song knows that Gallimard and western males desire Oriental women that are "child-like" and needy.

[Message #6 10:43:29 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Amy Pfaeffle:

Gallimard wants to be like Pinkerton because he is able to get whatever girl he wants whereas Gallimard has not been able to do so. He always wanted to have the girls look at him and go out with him, but he has not experienced it. He doesn't get a girl because he believes that he is not powerful or good-looking. Hwang states, " We who are not handsome, nor brave, nor powerful, yet somehow believe, like Pinkerton, that we deserve a butterfly" (621). He admires how Pinkerton is able to get all the girls and he wishes that he could to. When Gallimard meets song, he wants to get to know her. He is not used to having a girl wanting to talk to him about things. In the beginning, he doesn't not think that Song likes him and that goes back into his past where he is not used to having girls talk to him. He is trying to be nice to her, so that he can get her attention.

[Message #7 10:52:03 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Karen Wong:

Kendrick, good point about the power that Gallimard is seduced by. Initially he seems like this nice guy, but then he becomes enamored of being able to wield power over a woman, and given the stereotypes of Asianw women, Song is an ideal person to toy with. As Marc says, "She cannot love you, it is taboo, but something deep inside her heart... she cannot help herself... she must surrender to you. It is her destiny"(630). Marc perpetuates the stereotype that Asian women can't help but fall head over heels for a western man.

[Message #8 10:45:38 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Amy Pfaeffle:

What is the play about? I am so confused about the whole thing.

[Message #9 10:48:42 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Esther Lee:

Gallimard is a man, who is not handsome, nor brave, nor powerful. However, he believes that he deserve a "Butterfly". On the other hand, when he talks to Marc, he is so shy to girl. Gallimard can't not meet with the girls, when Marc shows him some girls. Also Gallimard is afraid the girls will say no to him if he asks. Just like what Gallimard says, "Marc, I can't... I'm afraid they'll say no-the girls. So I never ask" (620). But Marc thinks that man don't need to ask. He thinks that without asking is the beauty. He encourages Gallimard to meet more girls, as mush as he can. In the real life, Gallimard married a woman older than himself-Helga. Gallimard thinks that no fantasy woman would ever want him. However, he believes the bad truth is "all man want a beautiful woman, and the uglier the man, the greater the want" (624). It shows that, in Gallimard's mind, he believes that he can find another woman, not just a Chinese woman, also pretty. Song has her own idea. She thinks that he is silly to think the story is beautiful. What she concerns about the story is the girl kills herself for a Westerner. She doesn't want to be Butterfly again. Gallimard thinks that Song is outwardly bold and outspoken, but she is also shy and afraid. On the last part, it shows that Song is so nervous. She is so afraid that she can't not pretend to be a Western woman.

[Message #10 10:52:45 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

kendrick lee:

Amy the play's about a weak, not-so-masculine guy and his attraction to an asian girl. it just turns out that the girl happens to be a man, and a spy. but the sick and sad part is, Gallimard claims he honestly never new that Song was a man, even though they had a relationship for like twenty years

[Message #13 10:49:45 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Amy Pfaeffle:

What's the deal with Gullimard and Song?

[Message #14 10:54:29 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

kendrick lee:

they like each other. they have sexual relations

[Message #16 10:50:27 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Amy Pfaeffle:

How do we know that Song is a guy

[Message #17 10:56:11 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

kendrick lee:

i haven't got that far. I assume it's because that Song was convicted of being a spy, and i guess that's when they find out Song has male parts

[Message #20 10:54:11 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Esther Lee:

I don't think they love each other. I think Gullimard just want to find another girl whom he can talk with, coz he says he usually talk less to girl

[Message #21 10:52:36 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Amy Pfaeffle:

Why does Gallimard claim that he never knew that Song is a man

[Message #22 10:57:23 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

kendrick lee:

kinda embarassing dont ya think

[Message #23 10:54:49 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Esther Lee:

I think Song just want to pretend to be western

[Message #24 10:55:44 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

cheyenne satyna:

Although Gallimard relates to Pinkerton "not very good-looking,...pretty much a wimp" (618) and may even envy and be trying to emulate him. But in the same instance I believe he hated what Pinkerton does to Butterfly because at heart Gallimard really wants to be in love and be loved by Song.

[Message #25 10:57:37 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

kendrick lee:

kinda like a Jerry Springer thing, except the whole world found out, and was laughing at him

[Message #27 10:55:37 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Esther Lee:

Song is a guy???

[Message #28 10:56:47 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Marc Johnson:

I think that they did love each other. Which makes it even weirder.

[Message #29 10:58:53 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

kendrick lee:

he may have hated what Marc and Pinkerton do to women, but he was curious on what they experienced

[Message #30 10:55:01 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Amy Pfaeffle:

Gillmard wants to be a sweet loving guy, i don't think that he wants to be a player type.

[Message #31 10:59:33 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

kendrick lee:

he wanted to discover what was the point of treating women like that

[Message #32 10:59:56 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

kendrick lee:

then why does he cut off all relations with Song for about 8-9 weeks

[Message #33 11:00:04 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

kendrick lee:

she sent him a letter every week

[Message #34 10:57:26 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Esther Lee:

Gullimard is not handsome, but he wants a beautiful girl.....

[Message #35 11:00:10 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

kendrick lee:

and he never responded

[Message #36 10:58:11 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Marc Johnson:

I feel sorry for Gillimard because he got manipulated. Although it's kinda funny because how could he not know.

[Message #37 11:00:35 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

kendrick lee:

Song fooled everyone, not just Gallimard

[Message #38 10:58:04 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Esther Lee:

the guys like Marc always thinks that girls are shy

[Message #39 11:00:49 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

kendrick lee:

her audience didn't know, either

[Message #40 11:01:03 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Ana Salazar:

The idea and stereotype of the Asian women make Gallimard to believe the Asian women want to be treated badly. Gallimard is looking in Song Liliang the experiment women in sex, but at the same time, Gallimard felt attraction to the soft way that Song is treated him. Moreover, the stereotype that Asian women will do anything to have an foreign men to make her happy because they will "sell out" to get money, secure, and protection for sex that they can give to the best offer. All this stereotypes were in Gallinard's head. The influence of Gallinard's friends took value. David H. Hwang mentioned, "Marc answer to Gallinard, The same way you do. It's an old story. It's in our blood. They fear us, Rene. Their women fear us. And their men-their men hate us. And, you know something? They are all correct" (630). The reason that Gallinard believe everything that his friend said it was because he never cheating in his wife, and also he got the stereotype that he saw in the magazines. Gallinard believe in old stories that he heard, and also the stereotype that white men are good lovers. Moreover, all these ideas of Asian women influenced in Gallinard made him to take the courage to have and experience with Song, and so that these ideals justify the behavior of Gallinard toward Song.

[Message #41 11:02:23 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

kendrick lee:

then one day Gallimard just shows up, after her composure breaks and she basicly begs for him to come back, then they dim the lights

[Message #42 11:02:34 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

kendrick lee:

that is player stuff amy

[Message #43 11:00:50 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

cheyenne satyna:

I do not think that Gallimard is seduced by the power. The way a man controls his insecurities is by control and power. Gallimard is very insecure and has never been in the position to exert any control in the area of women. Song's role of being the weak, subservient female enhances this opportunity for Gallimard to finally be able to control his own insecurities. Gallimard is only partially responsible for his "abuse" of Song. As Song is encouraging this facade.

[Message #44 11:03:30 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

kendrick lee:

ya he wasn't seduced by power, just wanted to experience it for the first time in his life

[Message #47 11:07:48 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Ana Salazar:

Kendrick Lee, I am agree with you that in some point Gallinard was shy in some point, but what does meke him to change his mind toward Song so quickly? Provably, because he was more curious than his fears for his wife reaction.

TOP

10:10 Lupines

[Message #3 10:40:31 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Ricardo Salas:

With Galimard he is use to treating women very unfairly. He is a man that likes to have many women in his life. Even though he is married, he still plays the field with Song. He is used to having many women at one time. He has this impression that all Asian women are submissive and like to be treated unfairly. Song says to Galimard, " It's one of your favorite fantasies, isn't it? The submissive Oriental women and the cruel white man"(626). Gallimard responses, " Well, I didn't quite mean…"(626). This is one of the points that give Gallimard's thoughts of women in general. Song plays up to Gallimard a little more by saying what he wants to hear. Song says to Gallimard, "We have always held a certain fascination for you Caucasian men, have we not?"(628). Song used Gallimard's masculinity to get what he wanted, and Song used his own experiences as a man to play up to Gallimard.

[Message #4 10:45:55 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

carlos sandoval:

vvGallimard is no ladies man.Sound like he was never a good looking guy to begin with.We get this from his days back in school. He was so bad with women that his friend Marc had to arrange his first sexual encounter.He did manage to get married but that sound like that might be his limtitions with women. When song is interested in him he cant believe that a women would have noticed him.He doesn't know what to do with song's attraction to him.He is so lost on the situation that he has his friend marc give him advice and support.His friend encourages him to pursuit Song he tells him "It means money is in the bank, you only have to write the check" Hwang(630).Gallimard still is a little doubtfully that there is something there.

At first Song is playing the role of being strong women know what the white man wants and thinks about Chinese women. As we read on she starts to change into a different person.She is making herself into what she thinksGallimard want a submissive women.She starts to play the sterotype Chinese women that the foreign devil likes

[Message #5 10:46:04 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Amy Strazzarino:

Gallimard is very interesting. Before he met Song he led women on to believe that he loved them, when in actuality he did not. He married his wife Helga to advance his career not out of love. He makes reference to the girlie magazines he has in a crate in the cell and thinks women should be worth more than sixty-six cents. Anyone worth less should be in one of the magazines. "In real life, women who put their total worth at less than sixty-six cents are quite hard to find" (621).

Song talks about how she thinks Gallimard likes submissive oriental women and then he could be a cruel white man to them. She says that if the oriental woman killed herself because the white man left and she still loved him, Gallimard would think that is a courageous and beautiful thing that she has done for the white man. If the roles were reversed and it was an oriental man and a white woman, Gallimard would think the woman is deranged.

[Message #6 10:51:30 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Maw Aung:

Rene Gallimard is in the prison because of he supports a spy of China. Song Liling approaches Gallimard because she wants information about China. Even though Gallimard has a wife, he wants to have affair with Song. Song tries to persuade Gallimard to interest her. Gallimard has not much experience with woman. He says, "Women do not flirt with me. And I normally can't talk to them…" (629). He does not communicate with women very well. At that point, Song takes advantage of him. Song tries to make him interested to her by her beauty, invites him to her play and home. Gallimard starts to fall for Song's persuading and he lies to her wife. He says, "I married late, at age thirty-one. I was faithful to my marriage for eight years. Until the day when, as junior-level diplomat in puritanical Peking, in a parlor at the German ambassador's house" (624). Even though he was faithful for his marriage for eight years, when he saw Song at the first time, his faith for his marriage is gone. Song tells to Gallimard, "I try to be modern, to speak like a man, to hold a Western woman's strong face up to my own…" and "I'm a Chinese girl. I've never…never invited a man up to my flat before. The forwardness of my actions makes my skin burn" (634). Song persuades Gallimard by tells him that she is an innocent and shy Asian girl. Even though she tries to stays strong and frankly like a Western woman, she cannot. So she wants to says about she feels that she is guilty about inviting Gallimard to her house, and she feels inferior about him.

[Message #7 10:57:27 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

jeff mix:

Gallimard was an insecure fellow. He wanted control because of his insecurities. He wanted to dominate.When he found that perfect concubine he took every oppurunity with it. Song entices him with her singing. He is very attracted to her ultra-femininity. He wants to be the Alpha male with an intellectual side. Although married, Gallimard wanted to live out his fantasy. When he went with Song she played on the notion of the dominant caucasian male saving her from the evils of her asian suitors. I've never…never invited a man up to my flat before. The forwardness of my actions makes my skin burn" (634). She plays on her innocence while being sexually uninhibited. A forbidden love was also what he wanted. She played into the stereotypes and he fell for them.

[Message #8 10:55:14 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Karen Wong:

Ricardo, great quote in message #3. Song makes direct reference to Gallimard, and his response reveals his discomfort, as if he is both drawn to the stereotype and embarassed that he is so drawn to it. That's why I thought that Gallimard is actually a fairly decent fellow on his own, but with Marc's influence and the play's influence, he gets more sucked up into this roleplaying. Kendrick made that argument in his posting.

[Message #9 10:58:46 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

jeff mix:

Marc was Gallimards devil on the shoulder.

[Message #10 10:52:50 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Amy Strazzarino:

I would have to agree with that

[Message #11 10:57:38 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Karen Wong:

True, Carlos, comment #4. At first Song Liling mistakes Gallimard's response to the play for being one of sarcasm, but then she quickly assesses the situation, that he actually is swept up by what he sees as romance. Once she does so, she falls into that role like a spider drawing its prey into the web.

[Message #12 10:57:53 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Chris Milano:

Gallimard's past experiences with women has influenced his behavior with women, particularly toward Song. Gallimard had many stereotypical views of the Eastern culture, which led him to believe that Song was from a culture of subservient and was deeply feminized.

Song played into the sense of Gallimard's sense of his own masculinity as well as his stereotypes of Asian women. Song acted in a subservient manner and acted extremely feminized way. Gallimar acted in an arrogant way and gained a great deal of confidence after his relationship with Song began. An example of this was when Gallimar was discussing how the Vietnamese would "submit to any show of strength", further emphasizing the stereotypical attitude of the Eastern culture as being subservient and weaker that the Western world, a world Gallimar knows.

[Message #13 10:56:54 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Monica Suarez:

Gallimard, was expected to have luck with the ladies as all French men did. But he never really had much luck with them. "I've never been considered witty or clever. In fact, as a young boy, in a informal poll among

My grammar school classmates, I was voted "least likely to be invited to a party"(616). He never quite grew out of that stereotype given to him by his peers. He was married, but his wife wasn't enough for him, he wanted more. "The sad truth is that all men want a beautiful woman, and the uglier the man, the grate the want"(624). He longed to have some excitement in his life, and she puts some spice into it. He finds himself being able to uphold a full conversation with her. He is fascinated with this. She becomes his obsession. She is what he has always longed for. She is what he looked for "a feminine ideal, beautiful and brave"(618). Song is not like any other women he has met. She is secure with herself, not shy and docile as Asian women are "supposed to be". He finds himself challenged and attracted to her at the same time. She ultimately becomes the love of his life. He states "I have known, and been loved by … the Perfect Woman"(617). He is content with the fact that he has know such a powerful love .

[Message #14 11:02:04 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

jeff mix:

It seems Gallimard thought he was special, but he was really falling into a stereotype.

[Message #15 10:52:57 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Ricardo Salas:

I think Gallimard had all these hidden sexual fanatasy's before Marc introduced him into it. I don't think he was a decent man, becuase the fact that he cheated on his wife. This is when his true colors came out. How about that one Kendrick

[Message #16 11:00:09 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Maw Aung:

Yes, because Marc always push Gallimard to do that Gallimard does not want to do. Like cheating his wife.

[Message #17 11:02:35 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

jeff mix:

Very true. He had a choice. He chose to fulfill his desires.It was a very human choice. temptation took the better of him. I cant say he was indecent, but his actions were. The temptress played on his notions of east vs. west and it didnt help when Marc spurred him on.

[Message #21 10:55:47 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Ricardo Salas:

I agree with Jeff, he did full fill all his desires, so he wasn't a good man,,,after all

[Message #22 11:04:59 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

jeff mix:

THe man did what he wanted.

[Message #23 11:02:19 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Chris Milano:

But did Gallimar really cheat on his wife, what do you consider cheating?...Having sex with another person?...If so do you think he really cheated with Song?...How could he because she (Song) is a he? Just something to think about.

[Message #24 11:05:25 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

jeff mix:

He was using her for this one part of himself

[Message #25 11:03:05 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Chris Milano:

what part?

[Message #26 11:05:49 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

jeff mix:

He wanted a whore in the bedroom, a lady in the living room, and a cook in the kitchen

[Message #27 10:56:45 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Ricardo Salas:

So that mean's He took it up the rear, or gave him oral sex, it's still the same as cheating with another women, Right?

[Message #28 11:06:09 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

jeff mix:

This American dream

[Message #29 11:06:14 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

jeff mix:

Yes it is

[Message #30 10:57:15 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Ricardo Salas:

How about that???

[Message #31 11:06:32 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

jeff mix:

cheating that is

[Message #32 10:59:49 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Amy Strazzarino:

I would consider that cheating Ricardo

[Message #33 11:04:22 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Chris Milano:

Just a different kind of sex, don't you think that Gallimar ever wanted to go the traditional missionary route?

[Message #35 11:07:11 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

jeff mix:

"Why do you always keep the lights off when we make love???" "Are you hiding something honey?"

[Message #39 11:08:32 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

jeff mix:

So anyways, gender roles were not specific, the idea of dominance was.

[Message #40 11:05:52 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Chris Milano:

Cheating with song is not the same as cheating with a women, because of the simple fact that song is not a women.

[Message #45 11:09:10 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

jeff mix:

Yeah, giving a part of yourself to anyone other than your signifigat other is cheating.

[Message #48 11:02:14 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Amy Strazzarino:

Gallimar still cheated it doesnt matter what sex the other person is

[Message #49 11:09:33 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

jeff mix:

Yeah

[Message #52 11:07:30 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Chris Milano:

it's kinda karmic, he cheated and the result was he cheated with a man. go figure...what goes around comes around.

TOP

10:10 Poppies

[Message #2 10:36:58 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Angela Castiglioni:

The interaction between Gallimard and Song Liling seems very unnatural and uneasy on the part of Gallimard. The brief conversations that they hold seem backward for Gallimard, it is as if he is very nervous talking to this women. Song has this power over him, which leads him to be submissive it seems. Song has a power to her, it is displayed to Gallimard in the way she walks, acts in her play and the way she talks to him. It seems like she is talking down to him rather than to him as equal individuals. Like when Song says "It's one of your favorite fantasies, isn't it? The submissive Oriental women and the cruel white man" (Hwang p 626). She is putting Gallimard in his place, showing her authority, or lack of willingness to conform to him or any man for that matter.

I think the lack of Gallimard's experience with women helps to give Song the upper hand in their conversation. Song plays on Gallimard's masculinity by enforcing herself as the upper hand. She tells him when he is wrong and talks down to him indefinitely. I think his stereotype of Asian women proves to be untrue when he talks with Song. Gallimard thought that Asian women were the submissive, want to please their man type of a women. While in the case of Song, she is the complete opposite.

[Message #3 10:43:52 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Karen Wong:

[Message #4 10:41:47 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Joseluis Maldonado:

Galliard is a person that has never had a change with beautiful women. In fact, he wants to be like his friend Marc. The one that has had all the women he wants. In which Galliard try to act as his friend when he meets song. Yet is try to be the male Asian Stereotypes, he till is unable to do so. For the reason that he has not had many experience with women? In which the talking with song has become a challenge to him.

[Message #5 10:40:13 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Aubrei McGinn:

In "M. Butterfly" by David Henry Hwang, a married French Diplomat, Gallimard, falls in love with a Chinese opera singer ,Song, who he assumes is a woman. He falls completely head over heels in love with her and would give up whatever happy life he had before with his wife just to be with her. The reader finds out that Song is really a man playing the role of a woman and he is working as a spy for the Chinese Government. The only reason He/She goes after Gallimard is to find out information from him on the French Governments plans. Gallimard is eventually arrested for treason and the play opens with him in his prison cell. Gallimard's character is pitied by the reader for being so naïve and in love, but with his past of being unpopular he really couldn't help the surge of power he feels over Song.

Gallimard is an unusual character; He starts out in a position of low power working for the French Government, but soon rises to receive even more power as vice-consul. He wasn't attractive to women growing up, but then has a wife, a mistress and later another extra-marital affair. It seems as though he can't lose, that is until you finish the play.

In past experiences Gallimard was unlucky in love and just plain unpopular, Gallimard says, " …in an informal poll among my grammar school classmates, I was voted 'least likely to be invited to a party' . It's a title I managed to hold on to for many years." ( Hwang 616). Gallimard was just not who everyone wanted to be around. This is why he gets such a sense of power when Song pays attention to him. This beautiful " woman" wanted him and gave him her shame. Which to a Chinese woman Song says is the most you can give a man. And as much as Gallimard doesn't want to become the character of Pinkerton , the Western man who feels he can take advantage of the meek Chinese woman, from "Madame Butterfly", He can't help the power he feels that he holds over Song. The fact that this mysterious exotic woman wanted his presence and companionship in her life was just too much to refuse for Gallimard. The fact that she won't marry him just makes Gallimard want her more. To Gallimard it looks as though he is Song's Western male savior when really Song holds the upper hand in the relationship.

[Message #7 10:48:31 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

meung saelaw:

Gallimard has always been with many women. The whole time he was married to his wife Helga, he has had many many mistresses. He has always cheated on his women, until he met Song and fell in love with her. It's criticized that Asian women have no power over their men, and that Asian men overpower their wives with not enough respect. But what's ironic is, it seems that when Song met Gallimard; it was Song who was in more control than Gallimard. Throughout Gallimard's life, he has always used women for pleasure and never really loved them until he met Song. He even left his wife Helga for Song, but later finds out that Song is really a man. Gallimard has always felt that he had power over his women. He always felt that there will always be someone else out there, and he doesn't feel that being faithful and committed was important until he met Song. He finally said to his wife, "I have a mistress". His wife responds, "So, I knew you would. I knew the day I married you. And now what? You want to marry her?" (659) A along Gallimard was never ready to settle down with one women, and his payback was him ending up falling in love with a man. It's very interesting when you think about how many women he has been with throughout his life, and still doesn't know the difference when he is being fooled by a man. I think for what he did to his wife and all the other women he has played with, he deserved that trick put on him by Song. Gallimard's masculinity shot all the way down when he met Song, and Song had total control of everything. Gallimard was so in love with Song, that he was willing to give everything up for her. Too bad Song was a man, a man who has taken away Gallimard's masculinity and power of respect.

[Message #8 10:43:46 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Aubrei McGinn:

Angela your right Song does seem to be the leader of the realtionship, she sort of prays on GAllimard's insecurites

[Message #9 10:42:48 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

MarieGrace Calinisan:

Gallinard is not a cruel womanizer, though he seems to presume that he's a "foreign devil" himself. He's not a type of man who womanizes all the time, and this quality of him is kind of unrealized by Song. One stereotype that is revealed by Gallinard is the arrogance of Chinese people. He thinks that Song is arrogant after the conversation he experiences with Song: "If you wish to see some real theater, come to the Peking theater Opera sometime. Expand your mind" (p. 626). I guess, Song's straightforwardness and strong character (may be due to her actual sexuality) leads Gallinard to believe that Song is just being arrogant because she is a "Chinese" not because of what she's trying toimply between the West's relationship to the East. Gallinard somewhat misses the part of Butterfly, which he understands as "They (Chinese) hate it because the white man gets the girl," that Song seems to emphasize;

[Message #10 10:48:05 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Joseluis Maldonado:

It look like Gallmard is being controled by Song

[Message #11 10:50:30 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Roger Villegas:

Hwang plays with gender roles by creating the character of Gallimard similar to a high school girl in his awe of Song and her opera persona of which recieves extreme admiration and intimidation. Because of his strong admiration, Gallimard is on his knees begging for Song's company, but yet she establishes a tad of interest in him promoting a sense of worth through her sarcasm. Song is intelligent and this is manifested through her language art. Their interaction becomes a mental game of cat and mouse. Gallimard wants Song's attention, but it's up to her how much she is willing to give him. Yet this is more than enough for Gallimard. He'll take what he can get. This sets up Song as the fisherman with her singing as the bait, utilizing her presence to lure in the fish Gallimard who is waiting to be caught. This is unlike the traditional male and female hunt scenario. Usually it is the woman who is expected to fall head over heels and rationale in love for the uninterested authoritarian male.

[Message #12 10:50:10 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

jimmy luu:

From readinng M Butterfky, by David Henry Hwang about how a French man and a Chinese opera star has an affair. it was pretty good, to see that Song shattered Gallimards fantasy of a weak Asian women who is ignorant, weak and loyal. Song is very much educated and knows quite alot about the world. She knows enough about the Asian stereotyped to confront Gallimard in their first meeting and show him in a different perspective. Song says " consider it this way: what would you say if a blonde homecoming queen fell in love with a short Japanese businessman? He treats her cruelly, then goes home for 3 years, during which she prays to his picture and turns down a mariage from a young Kennedy. Then, when she learns he has remarried, she kills herself. Now you would believe you consider this girl to be a dernaged idiot, correct? But because its an oriental who kills herself for a westerner--ah!--you find it beautiful." (626) Although Gallimard is thorouly educated by Song's word, he still clings on to thos imperialist thoughts, that all Asian women are still afraid of the White men. Gallimard is quoted as saying "Tonigh, I have finally been invited to enter her aprtment. Though the idea is almost beyond belief, I believe she is afraid of me." (631)

[Message #17 10:48:02 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Aubrei McGinn:

I think the ending was pretty good, how he admits the whole relationship was fantasy

[Message #18 10:53:42 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

meung saelaw:

yup

[Message #19 10:51:16 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Joseluis Maldonado:

that is a good point

[Message #20 10:50:50 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Angela Castiglioni:

Do you think that Song is purposely trying to control Gallimard? If Song is trying to live as a women wouldn't you think that he/she would play the role of the passive, stereotypical women. Not to have he/she stand out above other women.

[Message #21 10:54:34 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

meung saelaw:

Gallimard has been with so many women, and it seems like he was not ever going to be satisfied until he met Song.

[Message #22 10:53:17 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

jimmy luu:

I thought that it was good to see an asian female who knows much about the stereotypes and fantasies of the White man, but i guess it doesn't count cuz she's a male. But i guess its also good to see that gallimard got played like a fool.

[Message #23 10:49:45 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Aubrei McGinn:

I think it is interesting how he thought he was so discreet but everybody knew about him and Song , was Gallimard with a lot of women before his wife?

[Message #24 10:55:23 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

meung saelaw:

I think since there are so many stereotypes of Asian women having no power that, Song deliberately wanted to show her powers in front of Gallimard.

[Message #25 10:54:19 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

jimmy luu:

i don't think so because his friend MArc says he is the model husband

[Message #26 10:55:15 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Roger Villegas:

The play was ripe because it dealt with attraction's power of seduction into a world of lies.

[Message #27 10:53:35 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Joseluis Maldonado:

it seem that Gallunard is try to use his male power over song

[Message #28 10:56:32 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

meung saelaw:

I think Song was trying to send out the message that Asian women don't always take shit from their men. And that for Gallimard to know that Asian women can be powerful in their relationships, but don't have to show it in public.

[Message #29 10:55:08 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

jimmy luu:

right on

[Message #30 10:54:14 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Joseluis Maldonado:

that is true

[Message #31 10:57:22 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

meung saelaw:

It's like from a women, " I know I can have power over you if I wanted to, but in public I'll give you face and let you show the power instead of me."

[Message #32 10:56:41 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Roger Villegas:

Only men know what men want

[Message #33 10:55:47 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Joseluis Maldonado:

that it a good point men do know what they want.

[Message #34 10:53:26 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Aubrei McGinn:

it's an interesting point

[Message #35 10:51:28 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

MarieGrace Calinisan:

or only men know what and how women should act?

[Message #36 10:59:29 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Karen Wong:

True, Angela, she has the affront to directly call him on some of his outdated notions, yet notice that she also pulls in when she senses too much discomfort on his part.

[Message #37 10:56:44 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Joseluis Maldonado:

will every one is the own of their life

[Message #38 10:52:08 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

MarieGrace Calinisan:

but there's a difference though between Oriental and Western women.

[Message #39 10:55:40 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Bryan You:

Gallimard's past experiences with women influence his behavior towards Song in a negative way. He has a certain idea in his head about the way an Asian woman acts and behaves. Gallimard is a frenchman that tries to live up to the reputation that all frenchmen are supposed to be "ladies men." In past situations he has probably tried to be suave and controlling. Gallimard's idea of Asian women is that they want to be treated badly and they will do anything he wants and take it because asian women are supposed to be subservient and obedient. Song plays on Gallimard's sense of his own masculinity as well as his stereotypes of Asian women to seduce him I guess. She sees how he thinks of himself as a ladies man and treats him like he is the man. She lets him think that he is in control and she will do anything he wants. Also, she plays on the stereotype that all Asian women will bow down to him. So, she lets him control her to get what she wants. "It's one of your favorite fantasies, isn't it? The submissive Oriental woman and the cruel white man." (626). Gallimard is just playing out a fantasy and she is letting him do it.

[Message #40 10:59:57 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Karen Wong:

What notions about masculinity does Gallimard possess?

[Message #41 10:58:26 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

jimmy luu:

he has none

[Message #42 10:57:33 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Joseluis Maldonado:

that is right

[Message #43 10:59:36 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Roger Villegas:

So Song being a man enabled him to play with Gallimard more effectively

[Message #44 10:58:45 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

jimmy luu:

he is just a white man with a powerful job.

[Message #45 11:00:58 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

meung saelaw:

yes, roger

[Message #46 10:55:53 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Aubrei McGinn:

Gallimard has a lot of insecurities that Song was able to take advantage of

[Message #47 10:54:02 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

MarieGrace Calinisan:

but Song is a man, do you think a chinese woman would have done what he did?

[Message #48 10:59:01 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Joseluis Maldonado:

[Message #49 10:58:43 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Angela Castiglioni:

Was it because she was really a man that Song could play in Gallimard so well?

[Message #50 10:54:40 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

MarieGrace Calinisan:

maybe, not at that time

[Message #51 11:02:16 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

meung saelaw:

I guess Song was really good at playing a female. He knew when to act as a woman with power and when to calm the force of her power, so Gallimard is still interested. It was good, how Gallimard fell for Song so fast.

[Message #52 10:58:21 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Bryan You:

i think Gallimard thought he was the man but he was the one who got played by Song

[Message #54 11:00:54 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

jimmy luu:

I don't think so, most asian women, like the fact that they sought after and prized. they are not aware of the sick fantasies of the white man.

[Message #55 10:55:30 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

MarieGrace Calinisan:

I thought Song was a homosexual....might be the reason for playing female role.

[Message #56 11:02:17 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Roger Villegas:

yeah I do think so because Song had the purpose of deception and most noramal asian women in love do not

[Message #57 11:03:08 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Karen Wong:

Marie Grace and company, can you expand on how the play may be commentary on "the West's relationship to the East"?

[Message #58 10:55:38 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

MarieGrace Calinisan:

so easily for him

[Message #59 10:59:11 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Bryan You:

i agree

[Message #60 10:57:59 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Aubrei McGinn:

I think that the Chinese woman working for the Government would do what he did that was his job

[Message #61 10:56:35 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

MarieGrace Calinisan:

The West is more powerful, as a territory, which is comparable to men

[Message #62 11:04:22 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

meung saelaw:

It was also the matter of humanity vs. territory. The east and the west. the Orientals and the Westerns

[Message #63 10:57:08 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

MarieGrace Calinisan:

The East, yeah

[Message #64 11:05:19 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

meung saelaw:

The west represented men, the east represented women. And the east will never be more superior than the west.

[Message #65 10:57:58 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

MarieGrace Calinisan:

The East is always, treated as inferior.

[Message #67 11:02:09 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Bryan You:

the west sees the east as weak, calling us "little brother" it makes them feel like they can dominate the east more easily this way

[Message #68 11:05:28 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Roger Villegas:

The east puts out the persona to the world that it is much weaker than the united states but in fact the east finds a sense of power in accepting the role of being weaker, when they know the opposite is true.

[Message #69 11:06:21 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

meung saelaw:

But this little trick show that the east can be superior if they really wanted to. Just like women, we can show our power if we want to, but we sometimes choose not to.

[Message #70 10:59:12 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

MarieGrace Calinisan:

Does this kind of relationship between the East and West still exist today?

[Message #71 11:06:14 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Roger Villegas:

That is the whole power of women and nature

TOP

11:10 Madrones

[Message #2 11:38:56 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Corky Silva:

Gallimard believes that his past experience with American women makes him socially above his new wife. He actually sees Song as a piece of property with which he owns for a certain amount of time before dumping her when he leaves Asia. Song is a young, pretty, impressionable girl who tries to devote her life to him but, he does not show her any respect because of the stereotypes that he has grown up believing about Asian women. Inside, he sees oriental women as these beings that take all the cruelty of men and live with it because of their devotion. During his rendition of Madame Butterfly, he tells his friend, "Not like American girls. It's true what they say about Oriental girls. They want to be treated bad!" (Hwang 619). This stereotype of Oriental women has stuck with him because Gallimard is very unsuccessful with women, unlike his friend Marc, who tries to encourage him to go out more and meet more women. When someone is very unsuccessful with the opposite sex, or same sex, they tend to have fantasies that are about their personal domination of another, or their own sexual needs. When speaking with Song about her performance, Gallimard realizes that the same things he sees as a fantasy in oriental ladies, he sees as a moronic move in American Women.

[Message #3 11:38:31 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

david chen:

The past experience of Gallimand is very limited. Since he had always picked the wrong choices of marrying the wrong person. He looks at him self as an unattractive person, but he does have an attractive wife. He thinks that his in a loveless marriage that he doesn't have the feeling of being needed by someone. When he see the song "Butterfly" an image of an attractive woman developed in his mind. A loving and caring woman yet gentle and fragile and it gives him a feel of being needed by someone. He feels more like taking on the role of a real man now. He didn't have this feeling of man hood while he was in the marriage cause he didn't think he was needed. His purpose was to take care of this girl and protect her. he imagine her as a delicate need it guidance.

[Message #5 11:46:08 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Stefan Yeung:

Song Liling was a very smart spy, he studied and understood what Gallimard wanted from an oriental women. Gallimard was a white man from the states, and he is was in Beijing for some diplomatic issues. Song's objective in his mission is to intercept secret information that is being passed through the diplomat. The way Song went to find out these information is by going for men's weakest point, which was sex. Song learned what White men wanted from a little oriental girl, and he used that to get his information. Song went for the shy and very innocent girl appearance to fool Gallimard in believing that Song was actually a woman. Song also made Gallimard so head over heels over her that he was going to divorce his wife Helga, who lived in the states. Gallimard said, "Helga, I want a divorce" (Hwang 659). At that point in the story Gallimard did not know that Song had already been feeding his country many secret information that is making the US fall apart. The way that Song got the better of Gallimard, is by playing the game that made Gallimard think that he is the strong White man that is here to rescue this little oriental girl from all these problems in her country. Another way that Song got the better of Gallimard is by using almost every single stereotype that the White men heard in the states. Which was that oriental girls are very shy of their bodies, and Song said, "I thought you understood my modesty. So you want me to -what- strip? Like a big cowboy girl? Shiny pasties on my breasts? Shall I fling my kimono over my head and yell "ya-hoo" in the process? I thought you respected my shame!" (Hwang 650). By saying this made Gallimard feel bad about seeing her naked, so the mystery of Song remained.

[Message #6 11:44:34 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Karen Wong:

[Message #7 11:42:16 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Devika Naicker:

Gillimard was at first faithful to his wife. He was not the type to break a woman's heart or play with her emotions. He thought it was wrong, irrespectable and cruel to act like that. But when he met Song, the tables turned. He started lieing to his wife about his whereabouts. His friend, Mac always encouraged him to go to her, Mac says, "We don't have to be respectful. We're foreign devils" (630). Gilliard did not seem to have any exciting past experiences with women. Therefore, when he comes across Song he somehow feels pwerful because he knows that she likes him and that he is the foreigner who has won the heart of an Oriental woman just like in the stories. Song plays hard to get close to. She acts innocent and naïve, not having a sexual experience with a man, as though she was never taught how to please a man.

[Message #8 11:39:12 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

roland mesias:

Rene Gallimard's past deeply impact his behavior with woman. Rene in high school did not have many experiences with women. The only women he knew were the women in the magazines he read. He was not like his friend, Marc, the hot shot who got all the girls. This gave Rene a low self-esteem that made him turn to imagination for comfort. He was infatuated with the play Madame Butterfly because it gave him something to dream about and sense there is hope. He wanted to become the piggish Caucasian who gets an Asian female loving him, "The submissive Oriental woman and the cruel white man" (626). Song represents the Asian woman who falls in love with the Caucasian man. Rene sees this and is determine in making the roles play a part in his life.

[Message #9 11:43:21 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Nelson Ho:

Apparently, Rene Gallimard fails to distinguish between the different Asian ethnic groups, as he comments that Song is "utterly convincing" in the play because she is an Asian actress (Hwang 625). However, Song does not take it as a compliment, for she points out the damage the Japanese did to the Chinese during WWII (625). By saying that a Chinese person looks Japanese, Gallimard offenses Song, failing to realize that many Chinese still see the Japanese as their enemies. Gallimard also refers the Western actresses as "huge women", suggesting that Asian women should be petite and delicate (625). Gallimard has little confident in getting associated with other girls, telling Marc that he's afraid "they'll say no - the girls" (620). Also, when he finds the "girlie magazine" his uncle hoards, Gallimard is delighted not because of lust but because the girls in the magazine can do whatever he likes them to do. Gallimard finds the play Madame Butterly, in which a Japanese woman kills herself because her American lover has abandoned her, beautiful, probably because he has always fantasizes about submissive women and believes that Asian women are submissive.

Gallimard's wife, Helga, has a stereotype of Asians as well, for she asks her husband: "They have an opera, too? Do they sing in Chinese?" (626). It's stereotypical that all Chinese cannot speak other languages other than their mother tongue.

[Message #10 11:44:06 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Nelson Ho:

Corky -- Does he have any past experience with American women? I thought he was from France and never cheated on her wife.

[Message #11 11:42:48 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

roland mesias:

well in high school wherever it was

[Message #12 11:52:04 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Stefan Yeung:

Nelson: that is what i thought also... i always thought that Gallimard was always faithful to his wife Helga...

[Message #13 11:43:28 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

roland mesias:

Did you guys read the conversation between marc and rene?

[Message #14 11:46:13 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Nelson Ho:

Stefan -- well, i mean, he was faithful before meeting song

[Message #15 11:53:14 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Stefan Yeung:

Nelson: yeah.. that's it...

[Message #16 11:44:23 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

roland mesias:

ya but he was deprived of women...does that not affect his behavior?

[Message #17 11:48:52 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Bertha Flores:

Gallimard is not a very attractive men, he's shy and does not know how to approach women: "Well, he's not very good-looking" (Hwang 617). When Gallimard met Song he was married, but not very happy. Song makes him feel like real men instead of a shy boy, she makes him feel superior to her when they are in her apartment: "She feels inferior to them-and to me"(Hwang 634). Making his male ego grow. He always had an ideal woman in his head but he considered himself too ugly to ever be able to reach her. Song is that ideal woman he has always dream about, but this time she is finally giving him any attention. Song is an Asian Opera singer, who he is attracted to, and her giving him any attention makes him feels masculinity stronger. Since he is in a unhappy marriage, being with Song makes him feel good and wanted.

[Message #18 11:49:36 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Corky Silva:

nelson: i think your right, the story actually was very confusing and pretty boring for me, so I think Im gonna have to reread it without skimming

[Message #19 11:54:14 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Stefan Yeung:

Roland: which conversation are you talking about?

[Message #20 11:49:59 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Corky Silva:

roland, which conversation, about the orgy?

[Message #21 11:45:37 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

roland mesias:

I do not know but does not our past experiences constitute our stereotypes?

[Message #22 11:46:00 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

roland mesias:

The whole conversation

[Message #23 11:51:07 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Corky Silva:

past experiences do create stereotypes

[Message #24 11:46:49 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

roland mesias:

about how many zits he had and how he never got none

[Message #25 11:56:17 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Stefan Yeung:

Corky: yeah i agree with you... after something tragic happens to someone.. then they start to assume things...

[Message #26 11:48:33 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Mario Rosales-mejia:

The last class discussion regarding Asian stereotypes that prevalent in our society was based in the existent relation between "power and powerless". That means minority group coexistence in a larger Society.

The class conversation about Asian stereotypes covers the relation of a white male oriented society and their vision of gender in the Asian community.

The story M. Butterfly covers the relation of a French male and his Asian lover, relation complicated by political reasons. Rene Gallinard the Frenchman was a stereotypical representative of his society and what was expected from him was obvious in the story we read

" To protected the national security-the Church can't argue with that/ that's impossible! How cold he not knows? / Simple ignorance. / Time flies when you're been stupid. ? Well, I though the French were ladies men " (Hwang 615). We see how people look for justification about behavior not accepted by society Gullimard

[Message #27 11:53:32 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Corky Silva:

when i was growing up, most of my friends were either white, black or latin, so how they acted felt normal to me but, when i started high school I made a great friend who was chinese. I had so many stereotypical thoughts about how he should be but, soon I realized that many of those were wrong and he had grown up much like i did.

[Message #28 11:52:04 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Nelson Ho:

I think the story turns out to be ironic. Gallimard expects a submissive woman, and I believe many men want to be the dominant figure in the relation. However, Song turns out to be a man.

[Message #29 11:59:15 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Stefan Yeung:

Corky: so meeting this Chinese guy made you believe that you couldn't believe everything you hear about Chinese people?

[Message #30 11:51:49 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Mario Rosales-mejia:

Corky I don't believe that past experiences create stereotypes I beleved that society interpretation of that experiences do create stereotypes

[Message #31 11:55:51 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Corky Silva:

yep, which has made me a much better person since that time in my life, and actually, I didn't just meet him, he is my best friend and has been for 10 years

[Message #32 11:54:06 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Nelson Ho:

Mario -- It could be both, I believe. I know a Chinese woman that hates Indians a lot because one time an Indian teen-aged boy bumped into her car.

[Message #33 12:00:49 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Stefan Yeung:

Nelson: well Song became a submissive person because that was his only way to get the needed information... Song was playing the "male is better" role and made Gallimard believe that also...

[Message #34 11:56:34 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Corky Silva:

past experiences create stereotypes, watching TV is a past experience, reading a book is a past experience

[Message #35 11:54:54 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Nelson Ho:

Corky -- I think Mario was referring to first-hand experience.

[Message #36 11:52:32 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

roland mesias:

past experience do have an impact on people. it is like science how do we know that the sun rises

[Message #38 11:55:34 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Nelson Ho:

Roland -- It certainly does. I just posted an example.

[Message #39 11:56:56 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Devika Naicker:

Although, people have stereotypes, that might not actually relate to all people. It is so wrong to hate all the people who belong to the same group just because one out a million disturbed you.

[Message #40 11:53:05 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

roland mesias:

through experiences

[Message #41 12:02:19 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Stefan Yeung:

Nelson: yeah... that is what Corky was saying about how past experience causes stereotypes

[Message #42 11:58:10 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Corky Silva:

how is social interpretation a first hand experience?

[Message #43 11:55:24 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Mario Rosales-mejia:

yes past experiences have impact in people but we interpret that experiences fron the concepts learned in the families, schools friends and society in general

[Message #44 11:54:07 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

roland mesias:

it is not

[Message #45 12:03:21 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Stefan Yeung:

I think in Psychology that is called Generalizing Social Behavior...

[Message #46 11:58:13 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Devika Naicker:

because you are with people with different views, showing their own individuality- Corky

[Message #47 11:54:36 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

roland mesias:

as rational human beings we have the capacity to learn on our own

[Message #48 11:57:15 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

david chen:

it is ironic that in the end gallimard be came the butterfly and kills him self because the he didn't know song was a man

[Message #49 11:59:56 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Corky Silva:

social interpretation is when society shows you what they want you to believe, how they want you to see Chinese people. Like when the communist movement happened and the U.S. put all those Asians in camps, during that time they showed on TV how these people were bad, so that the normal American citizen would grom to believe their interpretation of the incident.

[Message #50 11:58:42 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Nelson Ho:

Corky -- Well, during the Cold War, the Communists were depicted to be bad and evil. That's the power of propaganda.

[Message #52 12:00:05 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Devika Naicker:

Roland-We cannot learn a lot on our own because we'll be entangled with all sorts of generalizations. It's only when you listen and talk to others, th learning process begins. that's the truth.

[Message #55 12:06:03 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Stefan Yeung:

it's such a bad idea how the media is also playing a strong role in the US spy plane incident... making the people of China look like criminals

[Message #56 11:56:57 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

roland mesias:

you are limited to what you think--Bertran Russell

[Message #57 11:59:35 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

david chen:

mario: i agree that society does play a role in how people interpret stereotypes

[Message #58 12:00:04 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Nelson Ho:

Stefan -- The US has always done that. The US should care about their own problems such as racial injustice

[Message #59 11:57:34 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

roland mesias:

First define truth and then come back to me

[Message #60 12:01:53 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Devika Naicker:

Stefan- the media is only taking advantage of the freedom of speech.

[Message #62 12:02:20 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Devika Naicker:

let's just say reality.

[Message #63 11:58:55 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

roland mesias:

what is reality?

TOP

11:10 Oaks

[Message #2 11:40:40 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Maria Cordonero:

I think that Gallimard does not think that a person like Song would want him or even consider him attractive. He has never had any luck with women. And so when his wife Helga came into his life, he just married her almost as his last chance to ever marry. He seems to be fascinated by beautiful women and it does not appear that Helga is pretty. He himself does not find himself attractive, The sad truth is that all men want a beautiful woman, and the uglier the man, the greater the want" (624). So I think this is why he finds song interest in him so astonishing. I think that when Song invited Gallimard to his apartment, I think that he believes Song only wants one thing from him, "We both know why I am here" (633). I think because this is a woman inviting a man to her home only means that she wants to have more than a relationship from him. I feel that he believes that because he has heard that Asian woman are submissive than she will easily give into him. He knows what her perception of him must be because he is a westerner. And western men are permissive, "I'm a foreign devil"(634). He believes all these stereotypes or at least he buys into them. And so he uses these stereotypes to get to her. She realizes that even having her in his apartment might cause gossip because in China women are not really allowed to be forward with men as she has been by inviting him into her apartment. She decides not to buy into this stereotypical thoughts of Chinese women and dismisses him.

[Message #3 11:36:44 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

jason bradshaw:

The stereotypes we discussed in class a very prevalent in M Butterfly. By examining some of the interactions between Song and Gallimard, Song say's "It's one of your favorite fantasies, isn't it? The submissive Oriental woman and the cruel white man" (pg 626). This alludes to the stereotype that Asian women are a sexual object for the white man's pleasure. Pursuing a woman is unusual for Gallimard because of his past experiences with women he is afraid to ask them out " I can't … I'm afraid they'll say no - the girls. So I never ask" (pg 620). However meeting with Song, Gallimard is able to come out of his shell and pursue this young Asian woman who he finds intriguing and exciting. This alludes to the desire Gallimard has for Song. He knows he can never really have anything real so he concludes he must secretly pursue Song. In scene 9 Marc talks about how she cannot love Gallimard because it is taboo. You know the old fable you always want what you can't have, this is the perfect expression to sum up Song and Gallimard relationship at this point. Gallimard is married and he is unaccustomed to the cultural ways that bind Song and Song is bound by her desire for Gallimard but unable to make distinctions between what she wants and what is allowed in the eyes of her peers.

[Message #4 11:41:50 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Alice Wong:

Gillimard does not have very many past experiences with women. In the play there were only four women he had actual sexual experience with. The women include a girl that was a girlfriend of his colleague Marc, his wife Helga, Song, and a college student Renee. Only have had experience with only two other women before Song, Gillimard did not have a lot of experience to go on. Song tries to please him because but does not undress. Every time Gallimard wants Song to undressed fully, Song would reply, "No…let me…keep my clothes…/Please…it all frightens me. I'm a modest Chinese girl" (639). By saying this Song gave the stereotype that Chinese girls are very modest. Then the next thing she says, "I'll do my best to make you happy…" (639). When Song said this; she implied that because she is a Chinese woman, she will be submissive and try to please their men. She skillfully played the stereotype that Western men thinks that the Chinese is very modest and submissive to their every demand.

The next time Gillimard has a conversation with Song, it is about a child. Helga, Gillimard's wife said, "Rene, I visited Dr. Bolleart this morning. /…he says there's nothing wrong with me. /…he says he'd like you to go in and take some tests." (644). When Gillimard confronted Song with their conversation, Song saw what Helga did not see, Gillimard's pride and manhood was questioned. Men do not like to think they are incompetent; they want to feel like they are truly a man that is able to produce children without any difficulties. It does not mattered what nationality the men is, every men doesn't like to think that they are incapable of anything, especially a child that is his flesh and blood. Song saw through what the real issue of seeing Dr. Bolleart is to Gallimard and she took full advantage of reassuring Gillimard's manhood. That is when Song suggested that they have a child together. With Song's reassurance, he once again feel like a true man that is capable of doing anything in the world, including producing a child.

[Message #6 11:36:44 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Brian Reyes:

In David Hwang's M. Butterfly, Song Liling is first portrayed as being the subservient woman that is stereotypical of Asians: "I will never do Butterfly again, Monsieur Gallimard" (Hwang 626). This quote is like a slap in the face to Rene because he told her how much he enjoyed her particular version of Butterfly. However, as the story progresses, Song sends Gallimard letters professing her love for him. In Gallimard's eyes, these acts are characteristic of submissive Asians: "but what would I love most of all? To feel something inside of me - day and night -" (Hwang 645). In truth, Song is manipulating Gallimard in order to gain information about the French government.

[Message #7 11:41:06 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

David thomas:

David Hwang's "M. Butterfly" contains many stereotypes, in particular pertaining to interracial relationships. Song seemingly plays the role of the submissive Asian woman. Gallimard says "Did you hear the way she talked about foreign Western women…she feels inferior to them-and to me." Song describes herself as "modest".

The author portrays Song as worshipping Gallimard. " That's one of the exciting things about loving a Western man…you are not threatened by a woman's education." Song portrays the social stereotype of submissive innocent girl. When Gallimard attempts to have sex with Song she seems reluctant.

Gallimard is stereotypical white imperialist, who sees the Asian culture as weak.

He sees Song as inferior to him. Galliamrd seems self-centered; he believes the Western World is better. It seems as if Song despite being considered lower class by Gallimard. She might consider his treatment better than the treatment by other Asian men. She sees the Western World as "progressive", but it might be no better than the male dominated world she is in now.

[Message #8 11:44:44 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Karen Wong:

[Message #9 11:45:48 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Ricardo Arellano:

Gallimard's past experiences play an important role toward his behavior toward Song. He has learned from trial and error that his compassion toward women is what all women expect, which is why he was faithful toward his wife for eight years, " I married late, at age thirty-one. I was faithful to my marriage fo eight years" ( 624). His perspective of Asian women in particular is that he sees them as inferior, though he doesn't see it in that manner, "I believed her suffering. I wanted to take her in my arms-- so delicate, even so I could protect her, take her home, pamper her until she smiled" (625). He subconsciously places himself to be superior to her, for he is blind to see the equality of all people.

Song plays a very truthful influence in taking the blindfold off Gallmard's eyes, for she brings out the truth of the situtation, "It's one of your favorite fantasies, isn't it? The submissive Oriental woman and the cruel white man" (626). She makes him realize that his way of thinking toward the Asian woman is in error, for he displays his subconscious prejudice toward them when he comments on the play, "Of her death. It's a ...a pure sacrifice. He's unworthy, but what can she do? She loves him...so much. It's a very beautiful story" (625).

Overall, Song is key to deciphering the true essnece of reality that Gallimard should be exposed to. She contests Gallimard's perspective on Asian women, and more so on his masculinity, for he places himself above women and Asians. Song is direct with Gallimard," Now, I believe you would consider this girl to be a deranged idiot, correct? But because it's an Oriental who kills herself for a Westerner--ah!--you find it beautiful!" (626). The overall scenario places Gallimard in a position where he must analyze his perspective and realize his false insinuation.

[Message #10 11:45:41 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Darwin Eustaquio:

Gallimard has had the fantasy of controlling women ever since he was a young boy. When he first saw a pornographic magazine at the age of twelve, his "body shook. Not with lust - no, with power. [There] were women - a shelf-full - who would do exactly as [he] wanted." (Hwang, 621) Gallimard is an unattractive man who is short and has pimples. He has never had a way with the ladies. As a schoolboy, he was voted "least likely to be invited to a party." This image stayed with him for the rest of his life. Therefore, Gallimard's past experiences with women, which have all been failures and embarrassments, have influenced his behavior toward Song. When first meeting her, he cannot belief she could be interested in him. He doubts this for fifteen weeks, until she invites him to her place. By this time his want for her has grown immensely. He has always fantasized with a beautiful women salivating for him and now he sees his chance. Gallimard is conscious of his want saying "The sad truth is that all men want a beautiful woman, and the uglier the man, the greater the want." (624).

Song is both shy and bold. She confronts Gallimard bravely and defensively. When he tells her "Madame Butterfly" is a beautiful story, she makes him realize that it is because he is a Westerner. She basically insults him and tells him that subduing an Asian women is probably his fantasy as well. But soon her weak side begins to show. She invites him to her apartment and ends up kicking him out because she cannot control her actions at the time. She seems confused with her feelings and thoughts, and this ultimately portrays her as weak and lacking will power.

Gallimard takes advantage of Asian stereotypes. Eventhough Song presents herself as being strong at first, Gallimard still sees her as weak and submissive. He sees her as the perfect opportunity to carry out his fantasies of sex, but more importantly, dominance.

[Message #11 11:48:34 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

DAVID RUIZ:

Gillimard has not had very good relations with women throughout his life. He is afraid to confront women because he is not very attractive. Since Gillimard has not really had intimate relations with women he has a lot of desire. He believes that all men ugly or not deserve to have not only a wife but a wife that will fulfill his every need. "we wlho are not handsome nor brave nor powerful, yet somehow believe, like pinkerton, that we deserve a Butterfly" (Hwang 621). Because of the stereotypes given to Oriental women Gillimard finds them fascinating. His only prior experience with women had been girlie magazines. He loved them because they gave him a sense of power. He could flip through the pages and do whatever he wanted with the women in the magazines. He would imagine them giving in to his every need. That is what he expects from Song. Since she is Oriental and he is Caucasian he expects her to fall for him and he expects her to be very submissive.

[Message #12 11:47:58 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

jason bradshaw:

Darwin, that was a quite some insight on the magazines and how they

directly correspond to Gallimard fantasies of controlling women with

power. I missed that, so thanks.

[Message #13 11:53:47 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Maria Cordonero:

I do think that Song is kind of toying with Gallimard. While they are in her apartment she is apologizing and giggling. I think that at first she wants to play the part of this silly woman. But then all of the sudden she becomes aware of what she is doing. It may still be a game that she is playing with him.

[Message #14 11:48:27 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Brian Reyes:

he/she is not toying with him. he/she is doing his/her job, as a spy.

[Message #15 11:54:46 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Ricardo Arellano:

Jason I agree with you with respect to the superiority complex Gallmard has, but only toward the Asian woman, for he has the loser mentality toward any other women. Since he has never had a real relationship with any other woman, he is scared to attempt to go for a white woman. So, Gallimard believes Asian women are a sure shot.

[Message #16 11:53:36 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Darwin Eustaquio:

Maria,I agree with you, Gallimard does use his stereotypes to try to get Song. When she is having second thoughts about having him over, he reinforces the stereotype "I'm a foregin devil" in an attempt to make the "destiny" that his friend told him about come true.

[Message #17 11:56:15 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Alice Wong:

Maria, I agree with you. Song was trying to put up a front for Gallimard. Song was educated and repeatly try to act bold and brave like a Western women when she is truly shy like a Chinese women. She is torn between how to act in public and in front of Gallimard. By acting tough in public, Song was able to tempt Gallimard to believe everything she says, while when they are alone, she acts like a well behave Chinese women.

[Message #18 11:58:34 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Maria Cordonero:

Brian, how do you know that she is a spy? Have you read this before or read forward? Or do you just figure it out because he is in prison for treason? Just curious.

[Message #19 11:58:17 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Alice Wong:

Brian, but by toying with Gallimard's masculinity and emotions, Song was able to gain better knowledge for her job as a spy. But that does not really mean she had to have a relationship with Gallimard

[Message #21 11:56:40 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

David thomas:

Why does Gallimard not want Song to strip (pg666)?

[Message #22 11:56:12 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

DAVID RUIZ:

Maria,I agree with you. Throughout the play she keeps switching her behavior. She would behave in a manner that seems strong and she doesn't take any crap from him. She puts him in his place and seems to let him know I won't be the submissive girl you want me to be. Then again, later, she tries so very hard to please him.

[Message #23 11:53:52 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Brian Reyes:

Song's profession, acting, is the perfect cover-up because the tools that an actor uses are similar to those of an undercover agent: "Chin :'My mother tells me actors are like gamblers or prostitutes or --' Song: 'it helps me in my assignments'" (643).

[Message #24 12:00:24 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Ricardo Arellano:

Do you guys think that maybe Gallimard is a poor excuse for a white guy who has not expanded his social horizons, so he must begin with an Asian woman. That maybe subconsciously he wants to her for compassion, and once he gains confidence he will go for a white woman? It sounds weird, but maybe he has planned this out in the back of his head? Like he moves from magazines to an Asian woman< no pun intended.

[Message #27 12:01:21 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Darwin Eustaquio:

Maria, I do not think she is toying with him. I think that Song is simply having a struggle with herself. She is apologetic and silly at first because part of her has become the stereotypical Asian female: submissive and comforming. When she asks him to leave, Gallimard thinks that she is playing hard to get and that "no means yes" in this case. In reality, Song is not playing any games, she has simply had a change of mind. She is realizing how stupid she is acting and her Western education begins to take control of her.

[Message #28 12:03:04 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Alice Wong:

I was just saying no one knows why he doesn't want song to strip yet

[Message #29 12:04:08 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Maria Cordonero:

I guess I need to keep on reading. I only read up to page 634. I guess many of you read ahead. I had to read it twice to get an understanding of what was going on.

[Message #30 12:04:18 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Karen Wong:

Ricardo, he probably approaches Asian women because he assumes that he'll be able to command more authority over them, thus building up his own self-confidence, and then he does. in fact, move on to a white woman. Read on to what he thinks about this white woman versus having an affair with an Asian woman (and of course he generalizes to the entire group).

[Message #31 11:57:48 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Brian Reyes:

song has not had a change of mind. she is doing her job.

[Message #32 12:02:54 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

David thomas:

Ricardo I think your right, Gallimard couldn't get white women, probably

because he had no confidence. He probably thought Song would be easy. That he would have control over her, but really he plays the fool in the story.

[Message #33 12:06:12 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Tiffany Chuc:

Rene Gallimard always seem to have this perception toward racial and gender stereotype. At the end, he meets one and he fell in love. He met Song Liling, a chinese opera performer supposedly a man. Gallimard never had good experience with women because he knows that he is not an attractive man. All the women he encounter with reject him because they all think that he is not attractive. The only reason Song accept him is because oriental women are submissive and devoted to their men.

TOP

11:10 Redwoods

[Message #2 11:33:57 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Sara Powers:

Song behaves in a way which fits in with the Asian stereotype of women. She has a beautiful voice and appears very feminine. But at the same time, she goes against the conventional ways of Asian women. Instead of agreeing with everything Gallimard says, she voices her own opinion of the opera "Madame Butterfly." She combines feminine and anti-feminine points when talking to Gallimard. She says, "You make me blush. I'm no opera singer at all" (625) in a modest way, but then says, "The Japanese used hundreds of our people for medical experiments during the war, you know. But I gather such an irony is lost on you" (625). She partially feeds his stereotypes of Asian women, but at the same time goes against them to hold his interest. Gallimard is attracted to her educated ways and boldness. He comments to his wife, "She must've been educated in the West before the Revolution" (627). His past experiences seem to have been with uneducated women who want to please him. His attraction to Song may be because of her unconventional behavior. He has now found someone who will talk with him and not just listen. Song does still fit into the stereotype of exotic, sensual, and effeminate, but her subservience is not present at all times. Gallimard wants a woman to fit the stereotypes, because this is what all men want. But at the same time he wants more: intelligence and beauty.

[Message #3 11:38:55 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Nicholas Win:

In Hwang's "M. Butterfly", the existence of stereotypes towards Asians is felt. Gallimard, the main character, feels the need to acquire the presence of a young Asian female much like the character in the actual Butterfly playwright by Puccini. He believes Asians in general are weak and impressionable easily. When he sees Song, the opera singer that falls in love with, for the first time, Gallimard feels he has seen true beauty. He does not automatically approach this girl with overconfidence. It is within Gallimard's nature to be shy towards members of the opposite sex. Therefore it comes as no surprise to see Gallimard failing in his first attempt to court Song. The author writes "So much for protecting her in my big western arms."(Hwang 626) This line suggests that Gallimard feels the West is stronger than the East. The use of the words big and western implies that Westerners are more powerful than Easterners. This is suggested by the idea of the Easterner being held rather than the Westerner. This also brings up the stereotype that women in general are believed to be weaker than men. This stereotype is further heightened by the fact that in this case the female is Asian.

[Message #5 11:38:21 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Sara Powers:

Nicholas. That is an important quote, but I think he is admitting that his stereotypes were wrong. He says "So much for..." which sounds like he is realizing that the West is not big and strong after all.

[Message #6 11:44:50 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Karen Wong:

[Message #7 11:42:56 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

omar quijano:

In Hwang's play "M. Butterfly," Gallimard stereotype is represented as a quiet shallow man, who is conservative and do not express his emotions or feelings, but who can be a devil to obtain his prize. On the other hand, Song represents the educated and liberal stereotype of women, who uses her education to demonstrate Gallimard who the stereotype of Chinese women doesn't qualify her much. "Song. Consider this way: what would you say if a blonde homecoming queen feel in love with a short Japanese businessman?" (626). He recognizes how the Asian stereotypes are true, but do not apply with Song.

Even though Gallimard seems someway when he speaks to Mark, but with song his whole personality changes and tries to get her with him. "Gallimard. You go ahead … I may come later, Marc. Wimp" (620). But With song everything different he seemed like a devil getting towards her, and it seemed like he didn't have her because he would ask her is she was her butterfly.

[Message #8 11:41:02 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Rochelle Gurtler:

Gallimard's past experiences with the ladies has been cut short. He is clumsy and has zits. He got nervous when he was talking about maybe hooking up with some. When Gallimard was talking to Marc about the girls in China, he talks about how marriage doesn't really mean that much and how marriage laws are loose. He talks about his soon-to-be-bride negatively, "Not like American girls. It's true what they say about Oriental girls. They want to be treated bad!"(619). He also talks about how he wouldn't be able to take her back home with him to St. Louis because she would have a hard time buying rice. Song makes him realize that his feelings towards Asian women have been stereotypical. He realizes that the treatment of the Asian women has been very different than American women.

[Message #9 11:43:28 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Sara Powers:

Rochelle: how were American women treated? Are there two different stereotypes?

[Message #10 11:47:23 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Danny Azar:

In David Hwang's M. Butterfly Gallimard's past experiences with woman and past stereotypes toward Asian women effect his interactions with Song Liling. The first time Gallimard and Song meet, Song comes across as strong and confident in herself. During this first encounter, Gallimard's inexperience with woman shows. Song makes all the moves on Gallimard and he just goes with the flow. Song can sense that Gallimard is not sure how to act, so she takes control, "Your loss. Had you lit my cigarette, I might have blown smoke right between your eyes. Come"(628). Gallimard feels inferior to Song at first, but after a while his past stereotypes of Asian women help him feel that he is in control. During their second encounter in Song's apartment Gallimard starts to see that Song is a bit scared and uncertain of the situation. Gallimard senses this and he starts to gain confidence and feel that he is in control, "She does- she feels inferior to them- and to me"(634). The stereotypes Gallimard has gained, mainly from Madame Butterfly, that Asian women are submissive, have helped him claim some of his masculinity.

[Message #11 11:44:53 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Sara Powers:

From Karen's quote: If Song treats Gallimard like he is the ultimate prize, isn't that devaluing him as a man? That should make him feel more feminine, because that is how most men view women, as a prize.

[Message #12 11:50:21 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Krystle Castillo:

Rene Gallimard is a very reserved and passive character. All of his life he has been categorized as a "loser". He wasn't the smartest or most attractive. He had always had the fantasy having a beautiful woman… " The sad truth is that all men want a beautiful woman, and the uglier the man, the greater the woman" (Hwang 624). The fact is Gallimard didn't have any experience with women before marrying Helga. All he had was his imagination and pornographic magazines to satisfy his male needs. Song is the Asian Opera singer whom Gallimard fancies. She embodies all the stereotypical Asian myths about women. She is soft spoken, submissive and very passive. Song Liling feels uneasy about Gallimard's presence in her home. She even goes as far as to confront Rene about this awkward situation…"I've never…never invited a man up to my flat before" (hwang 634). Rene senses Song's uneasiness and tries to comfort her by saying "What are you afraid of? Certainly not me, I hope" (Hwang 634). Song's vulnerability feeds into his masculinity. He finally feels powerful and in control.

[Message #13 11:47:51 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Sara Powers:

Krystle, I don't think Song is always submissive though. She somewhat fits the stereo types of Asian women, but at the same time, she is more in control of the situation than Gallimard is.

[Message #14 11:50:01 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Maribel Baliwag:

Asian stereotypes are found throughout "M. Butterfly", by David Hwang. The story is composed of past and present experiences that Gallimard, the main character reminisces and discusses with his audience. In the beginning of the story Gallimard is presented as a sixty-five year old man who is in a prison cell dwelling on his past relationship with his ex wife Helga. His marriage with Helga didn't last and he wanted a more in his life, which is exactly what he saw in a woman named Song Liling. He finds himself tempted by her and seeks his masculinity through pleasing Song Liling. Gallimard character seems to be searching for a new type of personality. Song Liling is presented as the Butterfly that takes Gallimard's emotions run wild. In the end she finds herself drawn to Gallimard, but is insecure about herself.

-Karen: That's true I figured that's that is what Song Liling was trying to do! Gallimard liked that fact that he was feeling needed and although she seemed to be hesitant about her actions she was still there to make him feel wanted. the feeling wnet both ways.

[Message #15 11:49:42 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Sara Powers:

Maribel: I agree that Gallimard is searching for a new type of personality. He seems to in a way have envied Marc and these types of womanizers. Though it isn't really in him, he does want to be like them.

[Message #16 11:49:12 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Rochelle Gurtler:

Sara- Gallimard talks about how "she eats out of my hand" when speaking about Song. and then says how american girls are different probably not submissive and like to be treated good. what do you mean by are there 2 different stereotypes?

[Message #17 11:51:46 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Sara Powers:

Rochelle: You said the treatment of American women differs from the treatment of Asian women. We all know what the Asian stereotypes are, but why do you think American women are treated different? Do you think they have a different stereotype than Asian women do? or do all women fit into one stereotype?

[Message #18 11:54:58 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Nicholas Win:

Why does Rene visit Song at the theater? If he is as passive or shy as he is described, he would fear meeting a female that he admired. Was Gallimard more confident in pursuing an Asian woman because she was thought to be weaker and easier to domainate?

[Message #19 11:55:14 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Maribel Baliwag:

Sara- isn't it interesting that she continually sways him in by unsing her insecurities to gain security? With Gallimard's vulnerablity at this point in the story its kind of a given that he was going to act the way he did toward her.

[Message #20 11:53:29 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Sara Powers:

Nicholas:I don't think he saw her as totally weak and easy to dominate. I believe he visited her at hte theater as a passive first step, hoping she would take the next step so he wouldn't have to.

[Message #21 11:56:35 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Nicholas Win:

Would he have done the same if it were an American woman?

[Message #22 11:55:57 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

omar quijano:

If Gallimard is so shallow then why he persists in getting to her, if he realizes he can get hurt?

[Message #23 11:54:29 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Sara Powers:

Maribel: What? I don't understand what insecurities she uses to gain security...?

[Message #24 11:55:56 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Sara Powers:

Nicholas: I think if it were an American woman, he would not have been as drawn. He is attracted to her confidence and unconventional ways, but physically he is attracted to her beauty which is part of the stereotype. He is physically attracted to beauty, and emotionally attracted to her confidence.

[Message #25 11:56:41 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Sara Powers:

Omar, i don't think he does realize that he can get hurt. He fantasizes that she will make him happy and they will have no problems, doens't he?

[Message #26 12:01:52 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Krystle Castillo:

Nicholas- I don't think that Rene would have treated an American woman in that way. American are straight forward and don't take crap from anyone.

[Message #27 11:57:34 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Sara Powers:

I think that is the stereotype that Rochelle was talking about, that American women don't take crap from anyone.

[Message #28 12:00:02 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Nicholas Win:

Krystle- Isn't that a stereotype?

[Message #29 12:02:59 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Krystle Castillo:

Where does Gallimard's wife in all this? Doesn't she satisfy him?

[Message #30 12:00:10 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Maribel Baliwag:

nicholas- Obviously Gallimard wants to feel superior to the female gender. You raised good points about the stereotypes about asians,

[Message #31 11:57:32 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Rochelle Gurtler:

Krystle- I agree with what you say about him being a loser and that he wants something someone better than himself. What a loser. It's to bad that Rene is such a dork because Song seems like a great shim.

[Message #32 11:58:37 AM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Sara Powers:

Krystle, he is unsatisfied with his wife, because she does not look like Song.... That seems to be all he wants right now. He is probably emotionally satisfied with her.

[Message #33 12:01:11 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

omar quijano:

Probably is not the fact on feeling superior but that he feels challanged.

[Message #34 12:01:56 PM, Wednesday, May 09, 2001]

Maribel Baliwag:

Sara- well stereotypically asians are seen as modest women. (alice told me that!)

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This page was updated on May 11, 2001. Send comments and inquiries to Karen Wong.

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