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Conformity & Rebellion Poetry |
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[Message #2 11:19:36 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
1) What is your understanding of the poem? My understanding of this poem is that it expresses the self-centeredness of human beings collectively. The human heart is described as a "sordid boon" or an ugly prize of no real value because of our dishonest and unethical ways. The only escape from such a state is to retreat into an innocent and ignorant state.
2) In what ways does the poet use imagery to convey this idea? Metaphor: heart: sordid boon Personification: "This Sea that bares her bosom to the moon," "The winds that will be howling at all hours," Simile: wind: sleeping flowers
[Message #3 11:19:58 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Stefan Yeung:
When I first read the poem "The World Is Too Much with Us" by William Wordsworth, the immediate reaction that I got from the poem is that it rhymed. Another thing that I found out about the poem is the author is basically describing the world, and all the little things that make the world what it is. For example, Wordsworth talked about nature in line three, he talked about the sea in line five, and the winds in line six. This poem also goes into like a transition of, what might happen if everything was not in order with each other.
In what way does the poet use imagery to convey his idea?
The way the author uses imagery to convey his idea is by really descriptive words. In every line of the poem, the author uses at least two to three adjectives. I think the author uses these adjectives to enhance the reader's visions of what he wants them to see.
[Message #4 11:24:07 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
"The World Is Too Much with Us", a poem by William Wordsworth, talks about how we, as human beings, treat Nature. In the poem, the speaker says that "Little we see in Nature that is ours" and that "This Sea…[and] The winds…are up-gathered now like sleeping flowers". This poem was written in the early 19th century during the Industrial Revolution. The speaker may be suggesting that we care less and less about Nature, the environmental in which our forefathers lived, and that "we lay waste our powers" on industrialization. We have now become more materialistic than before. The speaking, feeling "forlorn", would be a "Pagan suckled in a creed outworn" and have "sight of Proteus rising from the sea", implying that he would rather stick to his belief and live a life in the natural environment.
There are a few imageries in the poem that seem obvious to me. In the first line, the word "world" symbolizes the materialistic world that we live in. The simile, which compares the sea and the winds with "sleeping flowers", represents little liveliness in the two objects. "Proteus", able to assume different forms, is like the waves of the sea. And Triton, usually represented blowing his horn, is the sounds which the waves create.
[Message #5 11:20:21 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
The poem "The World is Too Much with Us" is written by the author to complain that humans are too out of touch with nature. He argues that beauty is everywhere in nature, but nobody stops and takes the time to appreciate it. He personifies nature by "this sea that bares her bosom to the moon." He is trying to say that the sea is trying to show off her beauty, but nobody but the moon takes the time to see that. Besides personification, he also uses characters from Greek mythology to represent nature. "Proteus rising from the sea" stands for everything that is around the oceans and rivers. Triton represents everything that is underwater. And Wordsworth himself is standing in a meadow, observing the beauty that is around him. This is his solution, to stop what you are doing and just look around.
[Message #6 11:21:45 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
Brian, what does the word 'boon' mean? Did you look it up?
[Message #7 11:22:52 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Arellano:
1) The poem suggests that humanity is letting the beauty of the earth rot away, and we are contributing to it.
2) The poet uses imagery to convey this idea in ways that will speak for themselves, ways that will support his case in point.
[Message #8 11:28:40 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Brian -- Do you really think that the whole (or at least most of the) poem expresses the human heart?
[Message #9 11:25:17 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
no...thats not what i meant
[Message #10 11:25:41 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
boon: benefits bestowed upon request; convivial
[Message #11 11:25:58 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Stefan Yeung:
Nelson: how did you know that the poem was written during the industrial revolution?
[Message #12 11:26:17 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
i had more to say...but i was pressed for time
[Message #13 11:30:24 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Brian -- ok. Then how does the poem express our "dishonest and unethical ways"?
[Message #14 11:31:13 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Stefan -- According to my knowledge, industrialization started in the late 18th century. It was the booming age for industrialization during the 19th century.
[Message #15 11:27:21 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
"we have given our hearts away, a sordid boon!"
[Message #16 11:25:27 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
I think Ricardo, Nelson, and I all got the same idea out of this poem.
Stefan, when you talk about everything not being in order with each other, do you mean nature? Or do you mean something else?
[Message #17 11:28:11 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
"getting and spending, we lay waste our powers;"
[Message #18 11:27:10 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
Brian you took that quote to mean people are unethical? "getting and spending, we lay waste our powers" ?
[Message #19 11:29:51 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
the first like i posted conveys the unethical "side"...in that, during the industrial revolution people were all about money and power
[Message #20 11:30:05 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
the first quote i mean
[Message #21 11:30:32 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Stefan Yeung:
Sara: What i meant was that if nature was not in order with each other then nothing in this entire "world" would be in order.
[Message #22 11:30:36 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
well maybe dishonest was the wrong word...i got it from the dictionary...
[Message #23 11:35:16 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Sara -- I think it would be best if you could support your arguement that "humans are too out of touch with nature" by using one or all of the first few lines of the poem.
[Message #24 11:31:20 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Stefan Yeung:
Everybody: geez what is this gang up on Brian day?
[Message #25 11:29:23 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
Brian, what do you feel the descriptions of nature represent in relation to what you just said?
[Message #26 11:31:41 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
human nature...human tendencies
[Message #27 11:35:51 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Stefan--Are you suggesting that we should now start bombarding YOU with questions and comments?
[Message #28 11:32:12 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
ok ok little off topic
[Message #29 11:31:00 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Arellano:
Brian- why do you think Wordsworth chose this theme to write about during his time period? Maybe during that time, people were already commencing to abuse of Earth?!
[Message #30 11:33:01 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
no,abusing other humans along with the earth
[Message #31 11:33:19 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
during that time...there was alot of child labor and mining…stuff like that
[Message #33 11:31:31 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
Nelson: "Little we see in Nature that is ours" shows that humans are disconnected from nature. "getting and spending, we lay waste our powers" People are too busy getting and spending money to stop and observe the beauty around them..
[Message #34 11:33:39 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
those with money had power
[Message #35 11:34:01 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Stefan Yeung:
Nelson: no... i mean it doesn't matter if there is questions about my response then just ask me.
[Message #36 11:34:03 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
absolute power, corrupts absolutely
[Message #37 11:32:32 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Arellano:
gotcha
[Message #39 11:38:30 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Ricardo--as I mentioned in my response, the 19th century was the booming age for the Industrial Revolution. The poet was living in England when he wrote the poem, and during that time pollution was a concern for some English cities. For example, Manchester was always covered with smoke
[Message #40 11:33:39 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Arellano:
good, answer I didn't even remember that. Do you think maybe he was trying to send a message out to his people?
[Message #41 11:39:18 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Sara--I do not disagree with your interpretation, but poets sometimes write in ways such that you can interpret their ideas in more than one ways.
[Message #42 11:33:32 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
That is definitely true.
[Message #43 11:34:06 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
Honestly, I don't think I understand this poem too much, except to take it in the most literal of senses.
[Message #44 11:36:46 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
have any of you looked at the questions in the book for this poem?
[Message #45 11:41:11 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Sara--I agree with you. The poem is the most difficult to understand out of the four. I wanted to choose "Harlem", but there were already 8 people who had signed up for it.
[Message #46 11:37:13 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
the first question says, "what does "world mean in line 1?"
[Message #47 11:41:27 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Brian--yes i did. I use those questions to help me do this assignment
[Message #48 11:36:04 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Arellano:
I like to try to decipher a poem as much as I can, I believe that is the true essence of a poem. Poems, I believe are created to stimulate and awaken our creative thoughts.
[Message #49 11:37:40 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
ya me too...but it messed me up even more
[Message #50 11:37:45 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Stefan Yeung:
everyone: i guess that everyone is agree that in this poem is written during the industrial revolution, and the author's meaning of this poem is the people in this world is too busy makeing money and worrying about what factory to work in that they tend to forget just how much nature and all that is pure is slipping on by.
[Message #51 11:36:37 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
Yes. I thought it had much more to do with nature than with human nature though.
[Message #52 11:42:43 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Ricardo -- On the other hand, a poem like this one does more damage to our brain cells than awakens our creativity.
[Message #53 11:39:01 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
nelson: wut was ur interpretation of the use of the word "world"?
[Message #54 11:39:04 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Stefan Yeung:
Brian: yeah i looked at the questions after the peom... i looked at that question too... but i couldn't figure out what the word "world" meant in the poem.
[Message #55 11:37:38 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Arellano:
I hope you mean that figuratively speaking hehe
[Message #56 11:43:28 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
I think the poem has to how human nature reacts to nature during the industrail revolution
[Message #57 11:37:29 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
How does this poem damage our brain cells? i think it makes people more aware, and think more about the environment
[Message #58 11:43:59 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Brian -- I don't really know.
[Message #59 11:40:06 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
ya me too
[Message #60 11:40:10 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Stefan Yeung:
Ricardo: yeah i agree with you.. poems like these just confuses us and turn us away from all poems...
[Message #61 11:40:15 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
well i sorta guessed
[Message #62 11:38:22 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
I excluded line one from my interpretation because I don't know what world means either.
[Message #63 11:40:28 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
wanna hear wut i thought?
[Message #64 11:44:55 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Sara -- Some people are not very cognizant of the poet's messages. For someone like me, it takes a lot of thoughts and energy. Consequently, I will eat less and sleep less.
[Message #65 11:45:07 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Brian-- please. What did you think?
[Message #66 11:39:49 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Arellano:
well..no, I don't think they confuse us, they make us think critically about the possiblities, which are endless. You have to be in the right state of mind to be able to take in a poem. If you are in a bad mood, then it's pointless to engulf a poem and really take in what it has to offer.
[Message #67 11:41:25 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Stefan Yeung:
Sara: the poem is too confusing to understand... poems like these just makes me want to read other stuff like magazines or something like that.
[Message #68 11:41:58 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
i think it pertains to society...cultures...things like that...it works both in a literal sense and a abstract sense
[Message #69 11:46:08 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Ricard -- exactly. I am always in a bad mood when reading poems like this one.
[Message #70 11:40:15 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
I love poetry. I love having to think more. That's where we're different I guess. (Although I do agree that this is an impossible poem to interpret)
[Message #71 11:46:36 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Brian --yes but could you sort of expand your idea? Cultures and societies could be general and abstract
[Message #72 11:43:03 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Karen Wong:
Nelson, you've made excellent points about the social context out of which this poem is coming. Wordsworth is a key figure in the romanticism movement, which was like a call for a return to nature. And yes, this call was in response to the mass industrialization that was taking place.
[Message #73 11:41:07 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Arellano:
I agree with you Sara
[Message #74 11:43:16 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Stefan Yeung:
Ricardo: yeah that true too.. about being in the right state of mind to take in a poem... when i read this poem i was kind of sleepy and it was late... so i guess i couldn't get a good interpretation of this poem as you guys did...
[Message #75 11:41:18 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
It might have helped if I knew more about history before reading this poem.
[Message #76 11:43:22 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
"too much with us"...we are abusing it and all things in it...ex: the land, people, animals, etc.
[Message #77 11:43:41 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
tru...im not very good at history
[Message #78 11:44:40 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Karen Wong:
Question for you all: in addition to appreciating what nature offers us, how is Nature a part of our very essence: "Little we see in Nature that is ours"? How can we be more in tune with nature? What lines led you to that conclusion?
[Message #79 11:48:30 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
I just took a guess. There was one time when I liked reading novels written in the 19th century. So I thought the poem must have something to with the society during that time.
[Message #80 11:42:31 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
Ok that makes sense, Brian. "too much with us" meaning the earth was better off before people inhabited it?
[Message #81 11:44:42 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Stefan Yeung:
yeah.. if would help if there was some sort of history background...
[Message #82 11:45:22 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
no...it would be better off if we didnt abuse it so much and gave it more respect
[Message #83 11:44:34 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Arellano:
We all need to take a time-out from our daily activities, and meditate. A vacation is always refreshing, and lets you think about our lives, and how we can improve them, hence how we could improve our natural environment.
[Message #84 11:50:21 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Anyhow, everyone, shall we talk more about the imagery? We haven't talked much about the second question yet, I reckon.
[Message #85 11:44:33 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
Wordsworth's solution to Karen's question, is to not waste so much time on unimportant things. To just observe it sometimes and appreciate what there is. "So might I, standing on this pleasant lea,/Have glimpses that would make me less forlorn" If we take time to just look, the earth might not be going to so much waste.
[Message #86 11:45:09 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
Nelson what did you think the images represent?
[Message #87 11:45:38 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
Proteus and Triton, and the "sea that bares her bosom to the moon"?
[Message #88 11:51:43 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Sara -- first of all, I think we should discuss about the imageries before getting into what they represent, should we?
[Message #89 11:47:44 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Stefan Yeung:
Sara: well if you think about it...before the world was inhabited with people... it was pure, but once people started to live here they did nothing but take away from everything that is from nature... for example trees
[Message #90 11:46:22 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Arellano:
Again, I believe the imagery used is picked to back up his case in point, and to stimulate thoughts about it.
[Message #91 11:46:50 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Arellano:
He wants us to create an image in our heads to support his case in point.
[Message #92 11:48:51 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
how do u know that we arent working within nature...y is it that humnan behavior...like cutting trees is unnatural...beavers cut trees
[Message #93 11:47:00 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
I agree Ricardo. Why do you think he chose characters from Greek mythology to create this image?
[Message #94 11:53:30 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Sara -- I just think the Proteus represents the wave, since he, like water can assume any form. The other god represents the sound of the wave, since he is usually represented blowing a horn. So both of the together symbolize the sea.
[Message #95 11:49:27 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Stefan Yeung:
I think the imagery that the author used was very good.. it really painted a perfect picture in my mind when i was reading it... even though i was half asleep...=D
[Message #96 11:47:31 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
Brian, humans created machines that cut trees, that's not natural. Beavers have been doing it since the beginning
[Message #97 11:53:56 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Brian -- I think we he means is that we are cutting trees for non-essential purposes
[Message #98 11:48:18 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
Nelson, is only the sea represented in this poem?
[Message #99 11:48:52 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Arellano:
Good question Sara. Well for the same reason that we know who these Gods are, and what they represent. They would send a message to our mind, as to what is the meaning of all this chaos with nature.
[Message #100 11:50:53 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
sara: because it is a tool?...monkeys use tools...
nelson: arent many things we make from wood essential?
[Message #101 11:50:55 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Stefan Yeung:
Sara: but beavers use it to build dams but once that biodegrades... it goes back into the land...
[Message #102 11:55:09 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
sara -- probably not, but the sea is a symbol for nature, i suppose.
[Message #103 11:55:59 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
sara -- you see, there is more water than land on this planet. So I guess it would be legitimate to use the sea to represent nature.
[Message #104 11:50:08 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
Stefan, are you saying it is better to have a dam biodegrade? or not.
[Message #105 11:52:09 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
arent toothpicks from made from wood essential..after eating steak or spinach...or whatever you get stuck in your teeth?
[Message #106 11:50:19 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
That is a good point, nelson
[Message #107 11:56:56 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Everyone -- Shall we cease discussing about chopping off trees? I think it would be more productive if we could divert our attention to something else.
[Message #108 11:52:55 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Stefan Yeung:
Sara: well when the beaver is done with the wood it goes back into the land and a new tree would grow so there would be real waste here...
[Message #109 11:51:01 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
Brian what do you mean by "monkeys use tools?"
[Message #110 11:57:11 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Sara -- thank you.
[Message #111 11:53:33 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Stefan Yeung:
Nelson: what do you think we should talk about then?
[Message #112 11:51:43 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
I think chopping down trees is a good comparison for this entire poem, though.
[Message #113 11:52:08 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Arellano:
I believe that we are rational human beings, and this poems conveys to us the image that we could be better off. We could not abuse of nature, we could rationalize with nature, we could balance things out with nature. But during that time, Woodsworth saw that we weren't and we still haven't.
[Message #114 11:54:28 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
sticks to gather termits from mounds, rocks to do what ever they do with rocks...but im sure they use them for something
[Message #115 11:54:40 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Stefan Yeung:
Ricardo: yeah.. that is true... people and nature haven't be on the same level since the beginning...
[Message #116 11:53:34 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
the tools that you describe, Brian, are ones found in nature, not adapted like the ones people use.
[Message #117 11:53:44 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
I don't know, the tool thing has me all confused.
[Message #118 11:59:52 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Ricardo -- I agree, but the argument is, can you live away from the modern world? I don't think that any of us is willing to live a life with no electricity, though it's possible. Yes, people are not treating Nature the way they have, but there are always pros and cons for everything. Through industrialization, our effort has become more efficient in terms of productivity.
[Message #119 11:54:22 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Arellano:
Well that is true, but I think in some parts of the world that is more true than others. Here in the U.S. we have totally unbalanced ourselves with nature, and now, hopefully, we are trying to balance it out again.
[Message #120 11:57:11 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Stefan Yeung:
Ricardo: yeah be better start balancing ourselves with nature... or we would have neverending rolling blackouts...
[Message #121 11:57:24 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
i think that is the meaning of this poem...wordsworth was trying to send the message that humans have chosen to be productive without regard to how it will affect nature
[Message #122 11:55:31 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
Not everyone is willing to balance themselves with nature though. I think Wordsworth wrote this poem as a warning, that everyone should take the time to think about this.
[Message #123 11:56:07 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Arellano:
I agree with you Ho, but maybe we need to meditate a bit, and slow down. If we keep up the pace we are at, we will have more major problems in the future, ie. the power shortage we have now. In the long run I see the Decline of the US Empire.
[Message #124 11:58:11 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
very easy to say...hard to implement..
[Message #125 11:58:30 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Stefan Yeung:
Sara: yeah i agree with you... this poem that wordsworth wrote is to let people know that nature is suffering and people needs to step in and help out...
[Message #126 11:56:34 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
Some of the problems we are having now though, are caused by overpopulation though, not being out of touch with nature.
[Message #127 12:02:47 AM, Thursday, February 15, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Ricardo -- the power shortage is only in california and is due to some regulations some stupid policticians made. I don't think it has to do with our theme here.
[Message #128 11:57:00 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
I don't think so either, Nelson
[Message #129 11:57:37 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Arellano:
That of course is a worst case scenario, but we do need to look around at the reality and find different ways of producing enegry. So that's why we are integrating more and more the hybrid engine in new cars.......do you guys understand me?
[Message #130 11:59:21 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
my question is...why would you put such a powerful message into such a confusing poem?
[Message #131 11:58:15 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Arellano:
They are linked with each other Sara, if we didn't have such a nation that is over productive we wouldn't have as many people.
[Message #132 12:00:00 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Stefan Yeung:
Ricardo: so what you're saying is that if the U.S. start balancing themselves with nature, the U.S. would slowly but steadly become a third world country once again?
[Message #133 11:58:20 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
Brian, that's what poetry is all about. Less words to have more meaning
[Message #134 12:04:25 AM, Thursday, February 15, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Ricardo -- no PG&E goes bankrupt because some other electrical company is collecting the fee for the electricity it has produced. Even less advanced places like China have no problem with electricity at this point. The power shortage has nothing to do with the way we create energy.
[Message #135 12:00:44 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
ya..but think of the alternative...we become a more moral oriented nation...hahahahaha...ya rite
[Message #136 11:59:25 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Arellano:
Ho, I think it has much to do with the theme, and your type of blindness to reality is what is causing us to further ourselves into this hole of unbalance with nature.
[Message #137 12:01:19 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Stefan Yeung:
Brian: this poem is written in a way where only super smart people could understand it... which means the people that actually might make a difference in the world...Maybe?!?
[Message #138 12:01:51 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Brian Reyes:
oh ok...it makes sense now...im only smart...not super smart
[Message #139 12:02:10 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Stefan Yeung:
brian: heehee =D
[Message #140 12:02:32 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Stefan Yeung:
Brian: so i don't understand it so i'm "dumb"?!?
[Message #141 12:02:11 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Sara Powers:
it was also written in a time when people always talked wordier. it was for that time period, not this one.
[Message #142 12:04:34 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Stefan Yeung:
Sara: yea thats true
[Message #143 12:08:51 AM, Thursday, February 15, 2001]
Nelson Ho:
Sara -- But I actually think that people were more concise ( the educated ones, that is). They had larger vocabulary, so they knew how to be more concise.
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[Message #2 10:23:00 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
cheyenne satyna:
In Langston Hughes "Harlem" (328), he seems to be telling us that dreams cannot be held up, put away, or contained, that eventually they explode into being. If you take a culture or race and suppress them from being all they can be, what happens. Do they shrivel up? Do they rebel and stink from the anger or do they try to hide in the cracks as to not disrupt the status quo. Whatever the choice eventually, like a full rain cloud it cannot be contained any longer and like a desert thunderstorm it explodes.
Hughes uses the imagery of a raisin shriveling to convey the shriveling of a soul or people, and the festering and running of a sore to convey the building of resentment that seeps out when we are repressed. I see the "stink like rotten meat" as anger that cannot be hidden and the "syrupy sweet" as those who are convinced that they are less than another culture or race and believe the status quo is correct so they do not challenge or rebel and blend into the scenery.
[Message #3 10:19:39 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Aubrei McGinn:
1) What I think the poem means.
This poem talks about dreams that get put on hold. And the poet asks the reader what happens to them. Do they dry up or crust over?
Where do they go when you forget them? What I take from the poem is a moral saying don't forget about dreams or anything that is important to you or it may never be achieved. I think the title Harlem and the subject of dreams is the poet talking about achieving more than maybe he has or his family has in the past. The poem was written in 1951. Harlem being essentially an African-American neighborhood I think Hughes' dream is for civil rights and Equality among the races. The poem was written just before the civil rights movement.
2) The poem is very descriptive using examples of things we can picture" fester like a sore" , " stink like rotten meat". This imagery is negative; saying that putting your aspirations on hold is not good or helpful to you and will only be painful in the end. The only somewhat positive imagery talks about crusting over like syrup. This is still negative though because a person doesn't want anything that is crusted over.
[Message #4 10:25:01 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
ijmmy luu:
From reading the poem, "Harlem" by Langston Hughes, I thought the author was trying to say that a dream that is delayed is a dream that will either slowly fade away or will come back even stronger than ever. This makes quite a lot of sense to me, because some times when I set back some goals that I have made, I slowly lose sight of them and eventually forget them. But, sometimes these dreams only grow and grow in the back of my mind, until I have to set out and do something about it. Overall his use of imagery was very useful, his metaphors were very interesting and caught my attention right away.
After reading the poem several times, I think the author was also trying to make a political statement about life in Harlem during fifties. I thought the author could also be making a statement about how people in Harlem don't really have a way to fulfill their dreams, so in they end up giving up their dreams.
[Message #5 10:27:00 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Lucienne Kilgore:
The author analyzes what happen to a dream when we postpone it. Does it go away when we get distracted with everyday life or is put in the back of our minds and keep coming back until we do something to accomplish it. Since we don't know the outcome of that dream, it may be bad, stink or it may be good, pleasurable. It turn into a burden or it can turn into nothing, unrealistic.
[Message #6 10:29:09 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
cheyenne satyna:
Aubrei, you are correct that Langston Hughes was an African-American speaking for civil rights. I believe that in his time Harlem was not as we view it today. He experienced the Harlem Renissance which was a very creative time for African-Americans but they still could not be outright in there expressions of resistance to the white supremacy culture. They had to disguise their messages.
[Message #7 10:29:03 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
ijmmy luu:
after reading cheyennes and aubrei's response , I think i have a deeper understanding of the poem, I am impressed at how much you guys got out of the poem. I think i will allow myself to think more freely , the next time I read another poem.
[Message #8 10:26:51 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Aubrei McGinn:
I like how even though this poem is short the imagery used gets the point across very effectively.
[Message #9 10:30:03 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Lucienne Kilgore:
I believe that everybody should make their dreams come by setting up reasonable goals to achieve them. For example, if you want to finish college, but never plans on registering for any classes than that dream will never become true. I also believe that dreams that are not fulfilled slows people down and make think that they are a completely failure.
[Message #10 10:28:51 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Angela Castiglioni:
Jimmy, what kind of political statement do you think that Hughes is trying to make about Harlem?
[Message #11 10:31:44 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
ijmmy luu:
I thought he was trying to say that , the people of harlem didn't have the resources to achieve their goals, ie education, job opportunities and training
…and that we as a nation should address those problems, back then
[Message #13 10:30:30 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Aubrei McGinn:
If people are holding you down it makes it harder to accomplish your dreams and easier to give them up
[Message #14 10:33:46 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
ijmmy luu:
thats true,
[Message #15 10:34:11 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Lucienne Kilgore:
The poem was very interesting to me and easy to understand unlike the other poems. It caught my attention right away and even made me laugh and think. It something that I don't think about everyday, and it is also a truth. One can take it in many directions. There are a lot of topic that can be developed although the it's a short poem.
[Message #16 10:34:01 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ana Salazar:
The poet is describing the meaning if a dream seems to not come true. What if never happened, how we will feel, if dreams come true, and he is using different words to compare dreams mean for him. "Does it dry up/ like a raising in the sun?" what he mean is if the dreams appears as the sun does, but at the same way disappeared, or when we dream too much, and sometime we believe that our dreams come true, what will happened, or we think our dreams will dry or die as when the sun raise. The poet sounds some kind of disappointment with his goals in life, and it sounds that some of his dreams never came true because the way he used some ruddy words in the poem, such as "dry," "sore," "stink," "sags," and "heavy load." The prospect he is looking at is a second person answering to his questions.
[Message #17 10:33:06 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Angela Castiglioni:
Cheyenne, I really like the way that you interpreted the phrases in the poem. You saw who and what he was talking about so clearly. I really likes the way Hughes described things, his words are so captivating.
[Message #18 10:36:07 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Jessie Orozco:
You are totally correct. And one of the most important lines in there is "or does it explode?" That line says alot because it could mean does everyones silence explode in violence or shouts? But after the renaissance came riots and marches, so the dream ultimately exploded beyond the control of the oppressors
[Message #19 10:33:30 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Aubrei McGinn:
who wrote the book " A raisin in the sun"? and is Hughes making a reference to that or just saying that the dreams will shrivel up and shrink when not acheived
[Message #20 10:36:35 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
ijmmy luu:
Ana , that was a very interesting response to Hughes poem, i never would have thought that he might be talking about himself
[Message #21 10:38:18 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
cheyenne satyna:
I think it is important to look at whether the poem is directed at himself, his people, or the people suppressing their dreams.
[Message #22 10:36:38 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Angela Castiglioni:
Could it relate to all three?
[Message #23 10:36:01 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Aubrei McGinn:
that's what I think
[Message #24 10:38:48 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
ijmmy luu:
thats true, thats why there are no wrong answers to relating to a poem, there are just too many possibilties
[Message #25 10:36:49 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Aubrei McGinn:
it's all up to the reader and their interpretations
[Message #26 10:41:27 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Jessie Orozco:
I enjoyed reading this one, because it gave off a sense of rebellion against oppression. Anything put off for too long will eventually grow to big under the pressure. Like he said when, " What happens to a dream deferred? " and he goes on to explain what can happen when an idealistic dream is held back. He says does it sag like a heavy load, and that kind of result can be a burden, but even that can become explosive. The line, " Or does it explode? " is very important I believe. That line says a lot about what was happening during his era. Because everyone's silence broke and the pride of the African American exploded, soon after there were riots and marches and speeches. So, Hughes was contemplating his people's future.
[Message #27 10:43:37 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Karen Wong:
I like that your responses have ranged from the more personal (about your own dreams being deferred) to the political (equal rights). Note how he uses the word "deferred," as if to imply that there is a force holding people back. The imagery is fascinating, too, as it ranges from the sweet (raisin) to the grotesque (a festering sore). What did y'all note about the last line; how is it similar or different from the rest of the poem? How does it connect with the rest of the poem?
[Message #28 10:42:38 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
ijmmy luu:
my understanding of history isn't that good, but its good that you were able to tie in history with the poem, and interpret it that way.
[Message #29 10:41:39 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Angela Castiglioni:
So Jessie, you think that Hughes knew what was in store for the African Amercian people in America, ie the Civil war, riot ect?
[Message #30 10:44:17 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
cheyenne satyna:
I think that the only way to narrow down the idea the poet is trying to convey is to look at the time period he is speaking from. What is the history he is experiencing? What roles did he play at that time? Was he a political advocate? Was he known at all during this time? Or was it a poem that was written by a quiet, unknown poet?
[Message #31 10:44:21 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Lucienne Kilgore:
I agree with Cheyenne in regards to dreams be put away or contained, and that eventually they will explode. Dreams are not to be suppressed by achieved. The imagery of "a raisin in the sun that dries up" is very strong. It's very common to a friend, colleague, or family members to put you down when you tell them your dream (s) because most people are negative and can't see the whole picture, and in doing that they can contribute on a delay of a dream. We can see a lot of that in children's lives. Children are very innocent and they let out everything that are in their minds, but some adults just make fun of it. I remember when a was a child and wanted a bike very badly. My dad gave one to my younger sister, but never gave me one, so I became an adult and got a job, guess what?, a bought my own bike.
[Message #32 10:41:24 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Aubrei McGinn:
I think that without the use of the title and the time period this poem would only be about what happens to dreams and not about the civil rights movement at all.
[Message #33 10:46:49 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Jessie Orozco:
When he wrote these poems was during the time of the Harlem renaissance, that was when many musicians and artists were coming from Harlem, and they all had dreams and so did his people. I believe this poem is a contemplation of his peoples future and also a message to them? People can see what he means by drying up and the more positive line, or does it explode?
[Message #34 10:44:19 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Aubrei McGinn:
Another really good poem in this section about the civil rights movement is the "Ballad of Birmingham" by Dudley Randall on page 331
[Message #35 10:48:13 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
cheyenne satyna:
Aubrei, I agree that the title gives us more background on where the author is coming from and without that we would only assume that is talking about dreams.
[Message #36 10:48:02 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Jessie Orozco:
I dont think anyone of his people would feel good about having there dreams left to the side so it can rot like a festering sore…Jessie Orozco:
or let it sag
[Message #38 10:45:47 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Aubrei McGinn:
your right no one wants to let go or put on hold anything that they really desire
[Message #39 10:49:53 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Jessie Orozco:
or left to crust over all syrupy sweet, that just implies that the dream is there on the side just looking good and nice but in reality it is not edible
[Message #40 10:48:29 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Angela Castiglioni:
But sometimes it is the journey to the dream, however long it may be that makes it all worth it in the end
[Message #41 10:50:30 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Jessie Orozco:
unless they choose to heat it up and let it ooze all over
[Message #42 10:51:06 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
cheyenne satyna:
Karen in response to your question, I believe the last line is different from the rest of the poem in that it is a warning and the rest of the poem is a description of what happens to dreams deferred.
[Message #43 10:49:16 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Angela Castiglioni:
Why do you feel it is a warning?
[Message #44 10:49:45 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Aubrei McGinn:
I think it could be a warning like with feelings that aren't expressed get built up until they explode if your dreams aren't met you might just blow up one day mentally or emotionally
[Message #45 10:53:54 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ana Salazar:
Aubrei: Good point of view, I am agree with you that there are negative statements in the poem. It looks like the poet it is not satisfied with the life or what is around him.
[Message #46 10:54:51 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Jessie Orozco:
I agree with Aubrei because it can explode unpredictably, the oppressors would not see it coming, and neither would the people themselves
[Message #47 10:55:28 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
cheyenne satyna:
Angela, I agree that life is a journey not the destination so much but when your dreams a held down by an outside force then the chance of reaching that destination is impossible so the journey cannot even begin.
[Message #48 10:54:30 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
ijmmy luu:
i thought it was more of a bright side to all the negative comments he had about a delayed dream,the term ( explode) , seemed more like a positive thing. i thought that he might be saying that a dream that is postponed too long, will come back stronger than ever and cause people to take action to achieve their dreams
[Message #49 10:52:17 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Aubrei McGinn:
that's a good point too
[Message #51 10:56:34 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Jessie Orozco:
It is true of the surroundings at the time, there was not much positive things happening, but just as all the musicians at the time, they all had dreams about a better world and a better life
[Message #54 10:58:26 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Lucienne Kilgore:
It's is incredible the way Hughes writes about dreams; it seems as if he is speaking from the heart, from his own experience. We can feel his emotions behind the words; almost like an advice, he says what can happen to us when we don't listen to inner person. The road to achievement is most of the times bumpy and we stumble and fall; but he knows how hardy it is since he was there himself. It must have been very hard to him growing up in Missouri (where whites remains the larger population and people are more traditional) and fight for his African-american heritage. Back then, when the movement started, some leaders such Martin Luther King were assassinated because they had a "dream".
[Message #55 10:59:41 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Jessie Orozco:
excellent point
[Message #56 11:00:01 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
cheyenne satyna:
Jimmy, I like that you looked at the poem from the point of view that it could be good that we explode. Sometimes we need a push to make changes in our lives or in government.
[Message #57 10:57:48 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Angela Castiglioni:
I think that all dreams are possible, if you take the civil rights movement for example, since we are on the subject, the men and women of that time never thought they would see equality, that their dream was not going to come true, and people were persecuted, killed, harassed, ect, but it happened. The movement ended and the dream ultimately came true. Which make is even greater, because they stuck with the struggle
[Message #58 10:59:08 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
ijmmy luu:
wow. that was an awsome insight
[Message #59 10:58:19 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Aubrei McGinn:
true the fight for equality ultimately made it sweeter when it was achieved
[Message #60 11:02:58 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
cheyenne satyna:
Angela, did the dream come true or do we still suppress peoples of minorities?
[Message #61 11:00:35 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Aubrei McGinn:
A large part of the civil rights movement was for the right to vote and that was achieved
[Message #62 11:07:27 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ana Salazar:
Add, remember dream are relative, and there is fifty percent that could be true and fifty percent that could be dissipated. And maybe, the poet is trying to said is the political situation of the African-American civil rights at the time were so weak as a dream that could fade away.
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[Message #2 11:13:16 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jason bradshaw:
Langston Hughes "Harlem" was a poem about dreams a person has, but does not pursue them. The poem ask " do they dry up " meaning that the dream is no longer important to you. You have given up on pursuing the dream. Or does the dream tear up your inside because you don't have the discipline to pursue it so you constantly think about it, but never try to obtain your dream. The poem also makes a reference about those who try to obtain their dreams " Or does it crust over like a syrupy sweet?" (Langston Hughes ). This quote, to me, represents those who try to obtain their dreams live a happier life knowing that they gave it their best shot and don't spend their life wondering what if. Wondering what if is what festers inside of people passing up the opportunity to pursue your dreams lead to questions that you will never be answer so the lesson hear is to always be true to yourself and go for what you want. You can't go back so don' pass up the chance to obtain your dreams.
The poet use imagery by giving you ideas, playing off your own imagination. The words he choose represented things that everyone could relate to and picture the literal meaning.
[Message #3 11:17:33 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Devika Naicker:
1) What is your understanding of the poem?
The poem explains what could happen to a dream that is deferred, in other words delayed or overdue. The dream might "dry up like a raisin in the sun", shows that it might lose its essence or meaning once it exists for too long. "Or fester like a sore-And then run", means that because its existence irritates or bothers a person every single day because its bound to occur but for some reason it does not. The dream "stinks like rotten meat" suggests that since the dream has not yet been fulfilled it is no longer a worthwhile dream and that one feels that it is a very awful dream. The dream is "syrupy sweet" which means that the dream is pleasant and it doesn't matter how long it is deferred for, it will always remain sweet or lovable. "Maybe it just sags like a heavy load", implies that the dream has now become an emotional and psychological burden if it always worries a person and makes them depressed. "Or does it explode", that is once it continues for a longer period of time, the dream might inflict a person physically making them weak if his or her energy is exhausted often just thinking about it. A person's entire life can be based on his or her dream and if it remains unfulfilled, it might cause a person to break down.
2) In what ways does the poet use imagery to convey this idea?
The poet uses words to describe a dream in a both positive and negative aspect, making it as sweet and as sour it can possibly be. He tries to expand our imagination or horizon using descriptive words and making the dream sound very realistic, as it is likely to occur in one's life. He compares the structure of a deferred dream to those durable and non-durable things in life.
[Message #4 11:20:26 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Danny Azar:
The meaning of Langston Hughes "Harlem" is that one should always shoot for his/her dreams and never give up on a dream without at least trying. In this poem Hughes uses questions to inquire about what happens when one gives up on a dream. He does this to show that what would have been is truly unknown. If one gave up on his or her dream he/she would be questioning what could have been,the same way Hughes does in this poem. Carrying an unquenched dream is a very heavy load to carry- and the only way one can rid his or herself of this weight is to shoot for his/her dream.
Hughes uses a few images to describe what might happen to a deferred dream. When he refers to a dream that might fade away, he asks, "does it dry up like a raisin in the sun"? Or when he describes a dream that would eat away at someone, he uses the term "fester like a sore". With each of his questions of what might happen when a dream is deferred, he uses an interesting piece of imagery to help the reader see his idea.
[Message #5 11:25:39 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jason bradshaw:
Is it just me, or is everyone on the same page.
[Message #6 11:26:55 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Danny Azar:
yes- i think youre right
[Message #7 11:31:44 AM, Thursday, February 15, 2001]
elmer li:
what is the significance of the title harlem, what does it have to do wiht the poem?
[Message #8 11:28:14 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Danny Azar:
well, hughes was from harlem and he was probably reflecting on people from his neighborhood that could never live up to their dreams
[Message #9 11:29:46 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Devika Naicker:
Harlem may be referred to the dreamworld where people have their own dreams.
Hugh is generally trying to say that if a person has a dream he or she should try to accomplish it when they have a chance to, otherwise their dreams will just remain dreams, start becoming stale after some time and will lose its meaning. For some people if a dream isn't fulfilled their whole life ahead of them gets affected. Most of us would try to satisfy ourselves by dreaming, but when that dream could become real, our lives would be better off.
[Message #10 11:31:36 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nicholas Win:
The poem "Harlem" by Langston Hughes is a reflection on lost dreams. The author explores the many different ways a dream can dissolve in. Drying up is meant as simply forgetting or losing the will to live out a dream. Festering up as a sore gives an image of a dream that constantly arises but never gets completed. This type of dream is depicted as annoying and troubling. Rotten meat is an example of a dream that stays in the back of your mind, continually reminding you it's presence. Crust and sugar over might suggest dreams that are over-fantasized and dreamed about too much to the point of self-destruction. Sagging like a heavyload describes the type of dream that brings down one's feelings and mood because of the inability to complete it. The dream that might explode is the kind of dream that might cause insanity. The inability to reach or complete a dream might be too much for some to bear. This in turn might cause something inside to break or rupture. All the examples above are interpretations of the imagery the author used in this poem.
[Message #13 11:36:22 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
albert chan:
interesting thought nic
[Message #14 11:34:02 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Devika Naicker:
I agree
[Message #15 11:34:45 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jason bradshaw:
The dreams to me indicate the options you have, you could ante up an go for it or just let it go. Within these two contrasts you will fall. Think about, doesn't every dream you have ever had fall into one of the statements in the poem.
[Message #16 11:35:58 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Danny Azar:
yeah nic - i liked how you interpreted the "syrupy sweet" part. i wasn't sure how to interpret it myself
[Message #17 11:38:48 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
CherryLenn DelaPaz:
Hughe's poetry basically mean one thing. The consequences in giving up to something that you really like. He uses simile to convey his ideas. " what happen to a dream deferred? does it dry up --like a raisin in the sun?" He uses descriptive words to describe a dream. Hughe's is explaining that one should never give up on something that you dream of having instead give it a try and see what happens. For if you let a thing pass you by then, you are losing something important within yourself in the future. It's like being in love, if love someone you got to let them know what you feel, for it may turn out good in some ways. but if you decide not to tell what you feel then it will hunt you forever and you yourself will rot in the end.
[Message #18 11:37:39 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nicholas Win:
[in response to MSG#9]
How do you believe Hughes is trying to encourage the reaching for and completion of dreams? Personally, I viewed the whole poem as a classification of dreams.
[Message #19 11:36:45 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Devika Naicker:
Yes, they did, Jason and they always will. Dreams aren't only thoughts but they can be brought to reality if one has the determination to do so.
[Message #20 11:39:19 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nicholas Win:
[in response to MSG#19)very true..
[Message #21 11:41:03 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
CherryLenn DelaPaz:
right about that Devika... if you want something you have to work hard to fulfill it...
[Message #22 11:38:16 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jason bradshaw:
I thougt Hughes was trying to encourage whomever read his poem to seize the moment. Don't let time pass or you will fall victim to the one of the expressions in the poem.
[Message #23 11:38:18 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
DAVID RUIZ:
He is asking what happens to a dream deferred because it simply doesn't go away. He compares it to many other things the drying of a raisin, a sore, meat. All of these things go bad and look ugly. They were once good and they became not so good. Even the syrup sweet is turned crusty. He to me is implying that people shouldn't let their dreams sit around or they will go bad. One must take advantage of their dreams and strive as hard as they can to make their dreams become reality.
[Message #24 11:40:12 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Danny Azar:
well he shows what happens to dreams and to the people who have them when they do not go after them. All of his examples show that it is a bad thing to not go after your dreams- and that is how he encourages the reader to chase his/her dreams
[Message #25 11:41:09 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nicholas Win:
[in response to MSG#23]i see.... so it's indirectly suggested... thanks I didn't see it that way
[Message #26 11:39:50 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Devika Naicker:
That's right. If you give things up and don't pick the right options and neglect things, your dreams can never be reached.
[Message #27 11:40:43 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Danny Azar:
no prob nic
[Message #28 11:45:48 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
albert chan:
it's interesting how Hughes uses question marks at the end of almost every line. It almost asks the reader if he/she wants to follow the fate suggested in the line
[Message #31 11:45:58 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
CherryLenn DelaPaz:
Albert--true
[Message #32 11:43:41 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Devika Naicker:
The Question marks strengthen whatever the message he is trying to send across.
[Message #33 11:48:54 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
CherryLenn DelaPaz:
maybe his main purpose in using question marks after each sentence is to let the reader know the consequences of giving up.
[Message #34 11:47:45 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Danny Azar:
i think he uses question marks to show that if you give up on your dream you will always have that question of what could have been
[Message #35 11:46:40 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
DAVID RUIZ:
there is one part of the poem that i am not too sure what to think about. What do you guys/girls think he means by "or does it explode?
[Message #36 11:47:32 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Devika Naicker:
Hugh seems to be a very wise human being. He probably knows or has gone through some ordeal and now can relate to each one of us who has dreams. I guess some of his dreams might have been crushed and some reached making him give his insughts about dreams.
[Message #37 11:47:44 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
DAVID RUIZ:
I do like what nic had to say though
[Message #38 11:49:24 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Danny Azar:
i thought the "explode" reference meant that somebody who carries the burden of an unquenched dream with them, and never goes for it will eventually go crazy
[Message #39 11:52:13 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Karen Wong:
That's an excellent question, David, #37. The text completely stands out because not only is it in its own stanza, but also it is in italics. When there is social inequality, how does society "explode"?
[Message #40 11:50:35 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nicholas Win:
not to contradict myself, but exploding might also mean the completion or reaching of a dream
[Message #41 11:53:03 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Karen Wong:
True, the oppressed can explode within-- in what ways is their craziness expressed or intimated?
[Message #42 11:51:04 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nicholas Win:
an explosion is dynamic and full of energy..not like the other examples stated
[Message #43 11:51:43 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jason bradshaw:
I think the reason for the question marks, is to impose thought into the mind of the reader, to see if you meet any of the criteria, and to take the opportunity to reflect on what you have tried to accomplish. Maybe to continue to pursue what you might have given up on.
[Message #44 11:53:17 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Danny Azar:
when he refers to a deferred dream as carrying a load- carrying this extra baggage could eventually lead to craziness
[Message #45 11:52:40 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Devika Naicker:
Explosion could also mean thinking about it over and over again but not acting upon it. So you reach a point where you could not do anything else trying to reach your dream.
[Message #46 11:55:13 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nicholas Win:
and at that point .something occurs. possibly a breakdown?
[Message #47 11:54:10 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
DAVID RUIZ:
A person seems to explode in society when he can't get his way and I think that Hughes was trying to say that a person had given up on its dream because it was deemed unattainable. So it explodes his dream is therefore destroyed
[Message #48 11:55:50 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Danny Azar:
interesting deduction
[Message #49 11:57:14 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nicholas Win:
that could be it... but then why is it separated from the rest of the dream images.
[Message #50 11:57:14 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Danny Azar:
because that is the final blow- the straw that breaks the camels back
[Message #51 12:00:02 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
CherryLenn DelaPaz:
in reaching ones dream one should really concentrate on what he/she is trying to achieve. and if you will just sit there and go crazy thinking about what you should do then there will be nothing left for you. your dream will just break down into tiny little pieces.
[Message #53 11:57:43 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Devika Naicker:
after the explosion a person could go insane, commit suicide or just give up.
[Message #54 11:59:09 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Nicholas Win:
exactly, eventually you'll go crazy
[Message #55 11:58:45 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jason bradshaw:
Pursing your dreams is what makes the reality of obtaining the dream so worth while, by exploding you are overcome with emotion through achieving what you strived out to obtain
[Message #56 11:58:51 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Devika Naicker:
For some people dreams are really precious and it might cost them their whole life.
[Message #57 12:02:13 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
CherryLenn DelaPaz:
but don't you think that it is really up to you whether you'll go crazy or just hang on with your every day life.
[Message #58 12:00:23 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Devika Naicker:
Explosion would mean something and it does affect every day life.
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[Message #2 10:19:42 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Marc Johnson:
To me the poem has a lot meaning. I completely agree with McKay because of what he states. He says that we shouldn't die without a fight and that we should just give up. He says that we should die fighting for what we believe in even if we're going to lose. He says that we should die so valiantly that even the enemy would have to honor us. The way this is conveyed is throughout the whole poem but I think it's the last two lines that really stands out to me.
"Like men we'll face the murderous, cowardly pack, Pressed to the wall, dying, but fighting back!"
[Message #3 10:18:57 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
1. This is obviously a rebellious poem. It empowers someone fighting against any foe. This poem can make anyone a hero.
2. The poet uses great imagery and perfect verbage such as "monsters we defy" and "let us show us brave" to express the fight he is going through, whether he feels brave or cowardly.
[Message #4 10:22:06 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Esther Lee:
a) I think this poem is talking about the soldiers at that moment of time. These soldiers have a belief that they must die. These soldiers want to die nobly and they don't want to waste their blood. They want to be brave enough to fight with their enemy. They want to defy the enemy. They don't care the number of people who die for this war, but they think that this number shows the brave level. They will struggle until they die, otherwise, they will not go away from the war. Don't be coward, but be honor. Also, it shows the hate of war in this poem, "hunted and penned in an inglorious spot" (328).
(b) The poet doesn't mention the "war" in this poem. However, he uses a lot of word to identify the situation of time. The time people struggle with death. The poet uses "mad and hungry dogs" to describe the enemy. Also, she uses "hunted and penned in an inglorious spot" to let me know the people hate the war. She uses "monsters" to identify the enemy.
[Message #5 10:21:28 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Salas:
A) I think that they are in a war because they are saying, " Hunted and penned in an inglorious spot" (328). It seems that the enemy is in some sort of a field and they have them pen down. They are getting ready to die like men, fighting. That they would rather fight then sit and wait to be picked off like cattle.
B) McKay is trying to picture me in their shoes. In a war and we are getting ready to fight our way out. They we would rather die like men then like animals. McKay says, "Pressed to the wall, dying but fighting back" (328). McKay is picturing a field with solders penned up against some corner and they are getting ready to fight their way out, then to be slaughter like animals, and not fighting back.
[Message #6 10:25:31 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
kendrick lee:
A) the poem suggest that we do not lay down and die when we are faced with a challenge. If you are thrown into a life and death situation, the only option you are left with is to fight back . and make the attempt to save your life. In the unfortunate event that you are killed by doing so, at least you will have died with honor. The poem also states that by fighting back, you will have earned the respect of the person responsible for your death. McKay is saying that be never giving up, no matter what the situation, will make you more than a victim. You will die like a man, noble, proud, dignity intact, blanketed in honor and respect, but ultimately dead.
B)McKay's use of Imagery
The idea of being slaughtered like animals usually is not the ideal way most people would want to die. McKay uses images of being corralled like pigs, hunted by predators, and being made fun of in the process. He calls the enemy monsters, and promotes the attitude of "never say die." McKay's use of imagery automatically pus the reader in the position as the victim, or the person that is put in the situation to fight back. It can be taken literally as in a battle for life or death, or is can also relate to every day (non fatal) challenges in life.
[Message #7 10:22:03 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
its WWI
[Message #8 10:22:44 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
esther is correct about mentioning soldiers and their nobility and honor.
[Message #9 10:23:50 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Salas:
does anybody think that these folks are patriots?
[Message #11 10:23:13 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
they sure are
[Message #13 10:24:03 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
ricardo, thanks for the feedback on my rough draft, it helped
[Message #14 10:25:12 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Salas:
No it's write I think they are about to die noble. T
[Message #15 10:25:17 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Salas:
Right on Jeff
[Message #16 10:24:37 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
i think everyone is correct, it is hard to not understand this poem…it is a war anthem
[Message #18 10:30:18 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Marc Johnson:
I agree with you Jeff in the fact that the poem can make anyone look like a hero. Of course, the funny thing is you can't tell who's the good guy. The poem could, for example, make Hitler look like a hero.
[Message #19 10:26:22 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Salas:
I think they should go out and fight like men and die like men...in battle
[Message #20 10:30:14 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
kendrick lee:
good point. how do you not relate to fighting back and struggling when you are put in a life and death situation
[Message #21 10:25:51 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
exactly, but anyone who reads it could be empowered and feel like a hero
[Message #22 10:30:56 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
kendrick lee:
lol at hitler, good point though
[Message #23 10:26:22 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
its like the queen songs "we will rock you" and "we are the champions"
[Message #24 10:26:55 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
anyone who listens to it will feel like they won, no matter what they are doing
[Message #26 10:33:18 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Marc Johnson:
Maybe they should have surrendered since they knew that they were going to die
Message #28 10:29:16 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Salas:
i guess it's in every human being nature..to make sure we go out fighting not just sit their and let everyone take advantage of you..you will go out fighting and not like a coward
[Message #31 10:34:26 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Marc Johnson:
Just because they die needlessly doesn't mean they're automatically heroes.
[Message #34 10:36:12 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Chris Milano:
In the poem "If We Must Die", written by Claude McKay in 1922, the topic of death is discussed. McKay convey's the idea that when we as humans are going to die, we should die in a humane and noble way. He pleads with the reader to not let him die in a inhumane way.
McKay's use of imagery convey's this idea of dying in a humane way. He doesn't want to die like a "hog". Pleading to die nobly and that his blood not be shed in vain.
[Message #35 10:35:31 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
kendrick lee:
the poem is very inspirational to people on the losing side of a battle
[Message #37 10:31:54 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
and that is what makes a hero - facing adversity even if you know you are going to lose
[Message #38 10:32:52 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Salas:
Because they said , "If we must die let us die noble"..you see they know they are about to die so they must die like soldiers...fighters
[Message #39 10:35:55 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
meung saelaw:
In " If We Must Die", this poem says that if we must die, then let it not be like hogs, hunted and penned. Meaning, don't let us die because of killing, but rather because of natural causes. Don't let our blood shed, but keep our body as it is, and let it go that way if we have to. Let our time come when we are ready. Let us and our body make the choice of when we are leaving, but not murderously by others. Let us have the control of our death, when the open grave is open for us. Let us have a leave like how we should, by natural causes, for example, because of old age. In the end, we are dying but we are also fighting back.
[Message #40 10:37:47 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Marc Johnson:
It depends on what reason you're dying for that makes it noble
[Message #42 10:38:40 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
kendrick lee:
McKay uses words like noble, brave, honor, to get the people about to get torn up some meaning in their death
[Message #45 10:35:37 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Salas:
I agree meung..but what do you think of the who poem..about the part that they say we are penned and when they said we must die like men not hogs
[Message #46 10:37:52 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Bryan You:
In the poem "If We Must Die," McKay is trying to give us a message. He is telling the reader to fight for what they believe in no matter what. Even when the odds of winning are nearly impossible, it is important to try. That something we believe in is worth fighting for. He says that one person fighting against a group, idea, or status quo is brave and honorable and the masses are a bunch of cowards. The poet uses imagery by comparing people to dogs and hogs. Using exaggeration and emotion to bring out the feeling of the poem.
[Message #52 10:41:48 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Chris Milano:
excellent work bryan
[Message #61 10:37:54 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Salas:
Hello everyone that is stil alive
[Message #78 10:44:06 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
meung saelaw:
so did you guys like the poem
[Message #79 10:40:59 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
sort of
[Message #80 10:42:39 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Esther Lee:
nope
[Message #81 10:46:08 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Karen Wong:
Certainly war imagery is being used; what did y'all make of terms such as "hunted and penned," "bark...like dogs," "the murderous, cowardly pack..."? What do all of these terms have in common?
[Message #84 10:41:29 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
it gave me goose bumps
[Message #85 10:46:41 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Karen Wong:
What might these sorts of images suggest about those whom the narrator is fighting?
[Message #86 10:45:02 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
meung saelaw:
I thought the poem was very strong
[Message #87 10:46:24 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
kendrick lee:
they are not terms that humans like to call associate themselves with
[Message #88 10:41:53 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
that they are monsters
[Message #89 10:46:40 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
kendrick lee:
humans are better than animals, most people like to believe
[Message #90 10:44:04 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Esther Lee:
I think all of them are related to war
[Message #91 10:47:07 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
kendrick lee:
by putting up a fight regardless of your chances, it lets you die with your dignity intact
[Message #92 10:47:38 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Karen Wong:
Jeff, what makes you think that this poem may be in response to WWI?
[Message #93 10:47:26 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
kendrick lee:
but you're still going to die basically and be forgotten
[Message #94 10:46:18 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
meung saelaw:
yes, I agree this poem could be about war
[Message #95 10:43:21 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
or anyone fighting anything they consider unjust
[Message #96 10:48:05 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
kendrick lee:
or a statistic
[Message #97 10:45:12 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Esther Lee:
but how can we know it is WWI
[Message #98 10:44:41 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Salas:
The writer is trying to say that they are outnumbered and out gunned..but they won't coward down and be penned down like hogs (animals). So they will go out fighting til the last man is dead..or they are saying that if they must go then they will take as many as they can with them..to let them know they are not cowards
[Message #99 10:48:05 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
meung saelaw:
In a war, you are fighting for something and it's saying if you should go, then at least you had a chance to fight your battle. Whether you win or not, because you stood up for yourself, you're still a winner
[Message #100 10:50:24 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Karen Wong:
All, great points about the possibility of the poem being about war, and especially about the imagery that conveys how inhumane (animalistic) the enemy could be, or possibly all involved in a war. Perhaps it is a statement to reclaim one's humanity? What lines would support that interpretation? Or do you think that this poem can transcend war, that it's staking out one's position in the daily "war" of living? Cite specific lines in the poem, gang!
[Message #101 10:50:11 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
kendrick lee:
the poem made me think about almost every action, big explosion, shoot 'em up, movie i have seen. Predator, terminator, etc. If you fight back you give yourself a chance to live, and come back
[Message #102 10:49:04 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
meung saelaw:
It's like saying, don't let me die quietly, but let me die with a bang
[Message #103 10:46:56 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Salas:
Or maybe the writer is talking about real life..that even though he can't find a job he won't give up..he will keep on trying til his last breath..I think he is just trying to say that you should never give up..always try
[Message #104 10:46:05 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
YEAH!!!!!
[Message #105 10:47:37 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Salas:
it's like saying, "we will not go quietly into the night....."you know that saying..
[Message #106 10:46:52 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
YEAH!!!! fight on
[Message #108 10:50:21 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
meung saelaw:
I think it's also saying that even if the lives of soldiers are on the ground, the world still goes on, because their lives made a difference in the war. The war had a cause of some sort, and whether the soldiers came out dying or alive, their battle said something strong.
[Message #109 10:47:09 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
dont let anyone tell you how to act, or live, or think
[Message #111 10:51:57 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
kendrick lee:
if we must die, let it not be like hogs. Hunted and penned in an inglorious spor. While round us bark the mad and hungry dogs, making their mock at our accursed lot. (quotes that relate to animals karren)
[Message #113 10:47:32 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
fighting for all that is moral to ones self
[Message #115 10:51:17 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
meung saelaw:
This poem is saying all living things have something in common and that is life, and the fight for life.
[Message #116 10:48:11 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
yeah!!!
[Message #117 10:53:11 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
kendrick lee:
In vain; then even the monsters we defy shall be constrained to honor us though dead! lie men we'll face the murderous, cowardly pack (more quotes
[Message #118 10:48:39 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
you are right ricardo
[Message #119 10:49:39 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Salas:
Yeah right Meung!!!!! JK
Good answer...life is a struggle
[Message #120 10:54:06 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
kendrick lee:
i have difficulty believing that rocks have life meung
[Message #121 10:54:20 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
kendrick lee:
and i should have read what you said better
[Message #122 10:51:25 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Esther Lee:
I think this poem can be used to daily, for example we can say the boss is the "barking dogs" can we say that?
[Message #123 10:54:38 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
kendrick lee:
cause that made no sense after reading what you said again...just ignore me
[Message #124 10:53:39 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
meung saelaw:
"We must meet the common foe!" is saying that we shall meet who we have to, to stand up for our point and don't let ourselves be put down.
[Message #125 10:55:13 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
kendrick lee:
boss or teachers...
[Message #126 10:50:41 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
OWWWW!!!!! ROCK ON!!!
[Message #133 10:53:34 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Esther Lee:
"We must meet the common foe", it sounds like I have to meet no matter I want to or now
[Message #138 10:53:36 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Salas:
Yes,,saying that they all must meet SATAN..the common foe.....but not all of us
[Message #140 10:54:42 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Esther Lee:
sorry, I type wrong
"We must meet the common foe", it sounds like I have to meet no matter I want to or not
[Message #143 10:54:54 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Ricardo Salas:
I think we all must meet our maker..some consider him a friend some consider him a foe,,..(devil worshipers)
[Message #151 10:58:23 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
meung saelaw:
I think this poem is about our representation of ourselves, and how we hold ourselves in front of others. Also, it's saying that everyone makes a difference and whether it means anything to anyone, it should mean something to ourselves.
[Message #158 10:57:49 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Esther Lee:
I think this poem can be represent a belief.... Don't give up
[Message #163 11:00:08 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Bryan You:
what emotions does the poem bring out?
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[Message #2 11:16:54 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maribel Baliwag:
(1) The poem by McKay, possibly suggest the will of a rebellious force or army. It seemed like these people are to raid a town with common people and know for a fact that what they are doing may be wrong. They say that they defy a monster, and knowing that they know that what they do is for an evil cause. They make a point of meeting the common people, which means that they will take them over and although they may be out numbered - they will fight until the last blow (death). In the first part of the essay it is apparent that those men did not want to die, because they didn't want to be mocked at by dogs when dead
(2) The author uses imagery a great deal. For one, he writes in the context of the past and presents a war like theme to the poem. In the begging of the poem he uses the animal of a 'hog', because the people he wrote about didn't want to die being hunted. This tells the reader that these men (or women) of the poem may be out numbered and have nothing to do but surrender. The image of the poem suggest the theme of a battle, with a troop whose leader is considered a monstrous being. The wording in each phrase bares a lot of meaning, and when translated in to a more understandable context the story and its meaning is more clear.
[Message #3 11:13:38 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Rochelle Gurtler:
I think that the poem is the setting of the beginning of a war. A war that this side is out numbered. They know that the are all probably going to die but they are fighting for the right reason.
The imagery of them being hogs and hungry dogs barking at them shows how they are helpless. Talking about an open grave seems like they know they are going to die. The person speaking calls the other men a "cowardly pack". This shows how the other team is fighting unfairly.
[Message #4 11:20:25 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maribel Baliwag:
Rochelle I felt the same response. I think that this essay was pretty straight forward. I had a hard time looking for the imagery? did you?///
[Message #5 11:20:58 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maribel Baliwag:
I thought the same for the hogs and the dogs-Rochelle
[Message #6 11:17:52 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Rochelle Gurtler:
Yeah the imagery was hard to find but I looked at words that stuck out, i thought maybe they had other meanings then the literal ones
[Message #7 11:21:01 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
David thomas:
(1)Claude McKay, was born in Jamaica and came to the United States at the age of 23, in the year 1913. He was a black poet whom paid his trip to the United States by selling two volumes of poems. McKay likely experienced racism, and became frustrated with the fact that the United States doesn't provide the freedom he imagined. "If We Must Die", tells the reader that if Black Americans die fighting it is better than living as second-class citizens.
( 2) At least in death, McKay believes he will have honor by fighting to the end for what he believes. "Though far outnumbered let us show us brave,"(MCKAY 328).
"…then even the monsters we defy"(MCKAY 328). McKay shows that his oppressors are evil, less than human and killing them is not wrong, it is justified. McKay says "…our precious blood", this means that despite what the common believe of Black people as inferior is that they are people just like their oppressors.
[Message #8 11:18:10 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
roland mesias:
Many people want to die in many different ways. Some people would like to die quietly in their sleep: while others would like to be remembered for the reason they died. In Claude McKay's short poem, "If We Must Die", he talks about dying with honor and dignity. When he dies, he would like people to remember him as a hero and not as a coward.
Claude Mckay uses imagery to help the readers visualize what he is trying to say. He uses certain analogies such as, comparing hogs with people. Visualizing how hogs are slaughtered makes it easier to understand how strongly he feels about dying helplessly and without a fight. Another passage I liked that helped me comprehend what he was trying to say was, "like men we'll…but fighting back. This sort of situation often happens to big shot super hero in movies.
[Message #10 11:24:28 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maribel Baliwag:
Rochelle- do you think there were other messages in this poem aside from what it says literally? - like the aspect of courage and bravery??
[Message #12 11:25:04 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Darwin Eustaquio:
Personal Interpretation: This poem is encouraging people, not just men, to be brave to the obstacles in our life. It is encouraging us to persevere and to ultimately die trying. I don't interpret this poem literally. To me, this is meant to be of a broader sense, not a mere physical battle.
2) Claude McKay uses imagery throughout this poem to convey his idea of never giving in to defeat. The first image we get is that of being penned up like hogs in a lot, surrounded by vicious dogs. The dogs represent tribulations in our life that are seemingly eating away at us. The author tells us to fight back against those "dogs" so that they don't get the best of us. Many times when we are afflicted by problems, we feel as if we really are penned up and surrounded by hungry dogs. The second image presented to us if that of our blood being shed in vain. Here, blood represents our hard work, aspirations, and our souls. Our souls can be torn apart by terrible afflictions. The author encourages us to not let our hard work and soul go to waste on a problem by not confronting it. Next, McKay mentions the deathblow given to the foe, representing a solution applied to the problem, eradicating it. He is telling us to solve the problem with the appropriate solution: a solution that will attack the problem at its roots. The last image presented is that of being pressed up against the wall facing a murderous pack yet fighting back. The author is convincing us to never give up, to never give in to the problems we face, and most importantly, to go out with a fight. The imagery used here presents the struggles of life quite vividly, comparing them to a vicious death match.
[Message #13 11:25:45 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
omar quijano:
1. What is your understanding of the poem?
There is a war-taking place at the present time of the author, and he is expressing "how someone should die." Furthermore, he expresses what is the meaning of death, and how death can be honored and not. The whole idea the author expresses can be described just by the title "If we must die," since death is the only certainty we (human beings) have, the author makes reference to the privilege and right to die fighting for our beliefs, yet our foe, when he dies, he will be just one of us. Worst. Of all he won't be remembered as a person, while the other will be glorified for his deed. There is a slight difference between dying: one who dies just to kill, and the other one who dies to survive.
[Message #14 11:24:54 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Rochelle Gurtler:
have you come across any Maribel?
[Message #15 11:29:37 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maribel Baliwag:
David- I like the way you used the authors information and related it to your response. It is apparent in his poem that there was a racist vibe to it all. I also like your sentence about the Black Americans. Its very interesting that you brought up this point because i was looking at the poem at face value... i didn't really stop to consider the authors real take and perspective on it all. I guess that is really what we should be also noticing when reading the poems.... good stuff- david,.!
[Message #16 11:29:59 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Darwin Eustaquio:
David Thomas, I think your response is right on the money. I thought that this poem represented the struggles of life itself and how we must be brave when facing them. Now that I read what you wrote, I agree that McKay was talking about his struggles being black in a racist America. Good research.
[Message #17 11:30:40 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maribel Baliwag:
Rochelle and David- i have a question... do you think that most essays tell stories about the author and how he/she feels?
[Message #18 11:31:29 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
omar quijano:
2. In what ways does the poet use imagery to convey this idea?
He mentions blood in the poem, grave, and also death, etc. The whole imagery of the poem I have been able to obtain is a war between an oppressive government and a repressive town or people. Where, the government is defeating the people, who fight for their rights and beliefs yet the people keep on fighting, so they can be heard and can make a difference. For instance, when McKay expresses, "Pressed to the wall, dying, …"He makes reference to the torture the people are suffering in consequence of what they are or believe.
[Message #19 11:32:21 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
david chen:
1. The setting is in a battlefield and the enemy has out number us. Commander is yelling out the words to encourage the soldiers to continued to fight. Even though knowing that they will die still be brave and fight.
[Message #20 11:28:47 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Rochelle Gurtler:
I think that he might be comparing his life to a life lived like a war, but I really think it's about the telling of a visual or reference to a real war. What do you think Maribel?
[Message #21 11:33:05 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Bertha Flores:
1) What is your understanding of the poem?
My personal understanding of the poem is that there is some type of battle happening. The narrator is on the weak side, with only a few men but they are ready to die for their cause. The narrator talks about how he wants to die fighting back although he knows they are outnumbered. He rather die like a hero than a coward.
2) In what ways does the poet use imagery to convey this idea?
The poet talks a lot the way he is ready and prepare to receive death. The first image I got was that he was outnumber, and with dogs around him. He also makes me think that he wants to die proud and like a hero. It seems that he is talking about how in life you must face problems, instead of hiding from them. He rather die than be a coward for the rest of his life.
[Message #22 11:33:19 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
David thomas:
I think McKay felt like he was treated like an animal, he said if we die let it not be like hogs. He was fighting a war, not like a conventional war. He
is trying to say, I'm a man and I deserve to be treated like one. He wanted respect, he might have to die to get it.
[Message #23 11:36:56 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maribel Baliwag:
yeh.. that's true roland... the situation does happen to "big shot super hero's in movies!"- but don't you find it interesting that those kinds of movies usually win grammys?... (hahaha just kiddin)... but I know what you mean... people do die in different ways...I think this poem pretty much spoke for itself... if you read David's response to it you might see it in a different perspective... he has some good points on the author.
[Message #24 11:37:11 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
omar quijano:
David- I think you have given it a deeper meaning…Which I think is good.
[Message #26 11:37:36 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Krystle Castillo:
What is your understanding of the poem? In what ways does the poet use imagery?
My understanding of the poem is that the author is fighting for his life. He doesn't want to die in vain. He is going to put up a fight. His heroism won't go unnoticed. Even though things look grim he will still fight proudly. McKay describes the enemy as hungry and mad pack of dogs, barking and snarling. The imagery the author uses, makes it easier for the reader to picture and understand.
[Message #27 11:34:15 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
roland mesias:
Yup
[Message #28 11:39:44 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
david chen:
2. The words that the poet used like honor and far outnumbered us. The image that that this poem brings is like out of a war movie. Getting out number by the enemy and still fight with honor.
[Message #31 11:37:07 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
roland mesias:
I like this poem. It gives me a reason to work hard and never give up.
[Message #32 11:41:32 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
omar quijano:
Nice!
[Message #33 11:38:02 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Rochelle Gurtler:
It that really what you get from this poem roland
[Message #34 11:42:04 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maribel Baliwag:
Darwin-when you say 'preserve' what do you mean? its true that there is more meaning than its literal meaning-but what does it mean?- So the dogs simbolize our barriers in life....(according to your statement....) good point.
[Message #35 11:42:30 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
omar quijano:
I think this poem reflects more then just to win a war, or fight with honor. Does anyone agree?
[Message #36 11:41:27 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
David thomas:
When he said "pressed to the wall, dying but fighting back", He is showing that he will fight untill the end. Even if he dies maybe he'll get the respect he deserves, and when he says "let us nobly die", I think he means even if you won't let us live nobly, you can't stop me from fighting nobly and dying nobly
[Message #37 11:43:04 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Krystle Castillo:
Wow David! I like your interpretation!
[Message #38 11:42:46 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Darwin Eustaquio:
Do you mean persevere?
[Message #39 11:39:11 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
roland mesias:
yup
[Message #40 11:43:18 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
david chen:
omar- i like the way how you use "Worst. Of all he won't be remembered as a person, while the other will be glorified for his deed." to show that the enemy can still be around after they are dead.
[Message #41 11:44:35 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Darwin Eustaquio:
david is hot
[Message #42 11:45:43 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maribel Baliwag:
Darwin- you images that you pulled out of the poem are very interesting.. I didn't see that in the poem and its cools how you relate those lines with everyday life. Do you think attacking the problems in its roots -will eradicated the problem ???
[Message #43 11:45:28 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Bertha Flores:
Krystle, i like what you said about how he will fight until the end and proud. i think the same too.
[Message #44 11:46:44 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Darwin Eustaquio:
Sometimes you can eradicate problems other times you can only keep them under control.
[Message #45 11:47:26 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
david chen:
roland-- i agree that this seems like right out of a movie and the user hero is say these words
[Message #46 11:47:26 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Darwin Eustaquio:
Attacking a problem at its beginnings or roots is the best chance to eliminate it I think.
[Message #47 11:47:56 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
omar quijano:
Hey Chen! I like the iagen you obtain when you interpret the poem because you make a similarity between fiction a reality, which will be our destiny or life.
[Message #48 11:46:54 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Bertha Flores:
Omar i do agree that the poem does reflect more than just a war i believe that he is talking about life in general and the struggles we come along with.
[Message #49 11:48:20 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maribel Baliwag:
Rachelle --yeah.. i think the poem did have a lesson on courage and bravery because it shows how these men went out pretty much with nothing to lose (at least it seems)... but in a way i did see a lot of bravery and courage.. of course aside from what was apparent.
[Message #50 11:48:48 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Karen Wong:
Good points about the imagery... what war imagery and what animal imagery is used to convey his message? What is the point of using this imagery? (for instance, why are people's behaviors associated with animals?)
[Message #51 11:48:53 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
omar quijano:
I think this poem can reflect our lifestyle, don't you think?
[Message #52 11:48:07 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
David thomas:
because they're treated like animals
[Message #53 11:50:13 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Karen Wong:
Maribel, you're raising very interesting questions about literary interpretation. Some people feel that a literary work can be understood separate from the author whereas others feel that the author's background is integral to understanding a work.
[Message #54 11:50:22 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
omar quijano:
Not all animals are treatly badly, I believe he meant that animals were treated better then them
[Message #55 11:46:24 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Rochelle Gurtler:
Maribel, where do you see bravery comin from?
[Message #56 11:49:35 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Bertha Flores:
Omar-i think it can reflect our lifestyles, at school and at work we come acroos with obstacles that we must face, instead of running away from them.
[Message #57 11:50:59 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Krystle Castillo:
I agree with you Bertha.I think that this poem has a deeper meaning.
[Message #58 11:50:45 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
david chen:
did any one here seen "Braveheart" does this poem kind of reminded an image from the battle seen in the end where they were out number by the enemy and still they went on fighting to win their freedom
[Message #59 11:50:45 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Darwin Eustaquio:
animals are used in this poems imagery to describe human behaviors because sometimes we act savage and only respond to our animal instincts which are kill or be killed.
[Message #60 11:51:23 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
omar quijano:
Nice imagery David Chen!
[Message #61 11:48:10 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
roland mesias:
I think people's behavior are associated with animals because some people think less of animals.
[Message #62 11:52:22 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maribel Baliwag:
i like this point that you make OMAR!!!--- "Pressed to the wall, dying, …"He makes reference to the torture the people are suffering in consequence of what they are or believe.--> it bares significance as to what the struggle of these people was. It is so true at this point can be further exemplified in the context of present day and past experiences from cultures around the world.
[Message #63 11:48:42 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Rochelle Gurtler:
and act like animals
[Message #64 11:53:10 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
omar quijano:
I don't totally agree with you Darwin because are animals instinct are worse then what an animal behaves. For, instance animals kill in order to survive an protect themselves; that's their nature, while we have the capability of reasoning and don't seem to use it very well.
[Message #65 11:53:57 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
omar quijano:
do you understand what I'm trying to say?
[Message #66 11:50:25 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Rochelle Gurtler:
but what exactly are they fighting for. there are some battles that if you no that there is going to be no chance in winning, then why fight
[Message #67 11:53:44 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Bertha Flores:
i agree with you omar because id\f we turn on our tv we will see in the news the stories of the dogs that are biting people.
[Message #68 11:54:55 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
omar quijano:
To be glorified maybe!
[Message #69 11:53:50 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
David thomas:
because it doesnt matter if u have nothing to lose anyways
[Message #70 11:50:56 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
roland mesias:
one may also say that it is human nature to protect ourselves and survive.
[Message #71 11:54:58 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Darwin Eustaquio:
I also agree with you. I'm just saying that those impulses are referred to as animal like eventhough sometimes unfairly.
[Message #72 11:55:35 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maribel Baliwag:
Rochelle- that is a very interesting point about the 'life lived like a war'. -there are many ways you can support this assertion if you were to write about it (as a thesis statement). With the information gathered of the author (from Davids research) and what we know about present day issues on cultural chaos and war..- a persons life can easily be seen as a life living in war. The world is full of this thought and i think that you make a very good point in saying that.,..
[Message #73 11:55:40 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
david chen:
omar- i agree about the animal instinct that we all have and act on.
[Message #74 11:55:53 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
omar quijano:
It think that is better to do something, than not doing anything at all. Anyways, you can make an assertion that you are going to loose because that could only be answer if you give it a shot.
[Message #77 11:52:44 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
roland mesias:
#66 for honor and dignity, they sometimes makes us do foolish things
[Message #78 11:56:11 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Bertha Flores:
roland- i like what you said about it is our nature to protect and survive, i'm sure that any of us aat one time or the other we had to protect our self from people of event to be able to survive.
[Message #79 11:57:00 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Darwin Eustaquio:
true
[Message #80 11:53:29 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
roland mesias:
yup
[Message #81 11:53:47 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
roland mesias:
we too, are animals
[Message #82 11:58:16 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Krystle Castillo:
I argee with you Omar. I don't think that we are born with the instinct to kill. In one sense Darwin is right. When we see that our life is in danger our natural instinct is to defend ourselves. Even if it means harming some one else.
[Message #83 11:58:16 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Karen Wong:
Good points about the war imagery. Do you suppose the poem is about a specific war, or a "war" encountered in daily life? What lines led you to that conclusion?
[Message #84 11:58:20 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
david chen:
roland yea i agree 'honor and dignity, they sometimes makes us do foolish things" l
[Message #85 11:55:21 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
roland mesias:
Not the instinct to kill, but to protect ourselves...there is a difference
[Message #86 12:00:07 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Darwin Eustaquio:
It is about a war encountered in daily life. No lines tell me that this is so, it's just that this battle seems very general.
[Message #87 12:00:51 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Darwin Eustaquio:
Nice chatting.
[Message #88 12:00:21 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Bertha Flores:
Okay its almost time to go so i'll be saying bye.
[Message #93 12:02:04 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maribel Baliwag:
That's true karen... some people do see the backround as and integral to understanding something- I think David brought up a really good point about it all. - but one other thig is that some authors speak about how they feel at that particular moment... sometimes they think differently....
[Message #95 12:02:24 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maribel Baliwag:
thanks everyone.. !! good input!
[Message #96 11:59:56 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
DAVID RUIZ:
I think that he is saying that one must live life to the fullest I think that this poem has nothing to do with war but everyday life that we can't live cowardly we must live bravely and have a purpose in life so that we may be remembered.
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[Message #2 10:20:41 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Amy Strazzarino:
1. What is your understanding of the poem?
People want to be thin. When the author was younger she liked thin men. When she got older she realized she liked men who were a little over weight. Men are supposed to be built and strong to pull heavy loads, where as women are supposed to have curves. In the end people should have some fat on their bodies.
2. In what ways does the poet's use of imagery convey this idea?
"Cats like angels": Cats are small and graceful creatures.
"Pigs like cherubs": Pigs are big and fat animals.
"I loved spiny men": When she was younger she liked men who were like this.
"Men whose easy bellies show a love for the flesh and the table": When she was older she liked men who were like this.
"You are built to pull a cart": Men are supposed to be built and strong.
"Earthly, solid shapely": Women are supposed to have curves to their bodies.
"When we put our bellies together we do not clatter but bounce": People should not look like tooth picks, they should have some fat on their bodies.
[Message #3 10:24:47 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Joseluis Maldonado:
When reading the poem many things came to my mind. The author writes about how people see themselves. Say that Cat and angle are supposed to be thin; pig like cherubs are supposed to be fat (Piercy, Magre). Informing us that she was a person that care how man look. But later found out that it dose not matter how you look, but how you treat people that live and work with you. Proving that looks is no the real reason to be with a person that you love. Therefore you love the person with not broader. Letting your love reach the maximum level.
[Message #4 10:26:44 AM, Thursday, February 15, 2001]
MarieGrace Calinisan:
This poem has to do with all of us (e.g. how humans look at themselves generally), though the poet seems to emphasize personal opinions of the opposite sex. However, it's basically about a comparison of two types of men, and their importance to and physical characteristics' effects on the poet;
"Cats like Angels are supposed to be thin"
"Pigs like Cherubs are supposed to be fat"
"People are mostly in between, a knob"
The third line refers to us while it can be true for some or can apply to anyone. But why does the poet say, "People are mostly in between," when some people are actually thin while some are fat.
Though the third line can possibly be true, since she says "mostly" instead of "all."
She uses animals obviously and seems to refer to all humans' physical appearance as somewhat average to that of animals.
I think, in the end, the poets ends up loving a man who can cook; when she says, "men...who don't think peeling potatoes makes their penis shrink;" She may be generalizing that men who cooks are usually labeled as homosexuals.
[Message #5 10:25:25 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maw Aung:
(a) What is your understanding of the poem?
The poem is about every body has to live a life the way they should live. In the sentence " Cats like angels are supposed to be thin,/ pig like cherubs are supposed to be fat" (335). In our society, young people care about their beauty especially for their body and they want their body slime and smart. At young age, slime, smart and beauty are probably important for people. Most of the young people think the person who slime and has flat stomach is 'cool'. They do not try to look the person's inside or mind. They only look at the outside or the body beauty. In the poem, the poet expresses about when she was a girl, she thinks the body beauty is important and she love the men with handsome and smart. The sentence "When I was a girl I love spiny men with ascetic grimaces all elbows and words and cartilage (…)" (335). When people are single, they can do what they want for their beauty. They do not have to worry for the family and money. They can go wherever they want and they have a time for work out for their body beauty. But if the people get married, they cannot do most of the things that they did when they are single. They do not even have time to work out for their body and their beauty. They only try for their marriage lives or families. They have to earn money for family. They have a lot of responsibilities to have happy family. In the marriage lives, a husband and a wife, they both do not really care about the beauty. They only cares abut love, understand, honest and help each other. They know the important thing for marriage lives is beauty of the peoples' inside mind. No matter what the things are popular and fashionable, they do not care; one thing they care about is what is good for family. In the poem, the pot describes about she like a men with good looking and fashionable when she young. But when she gets married every thing has change. The sentence "Now I look for men whose easy bellies / show a love for the flesh and the table, / men who will come in the kitchen / (………………..)" (335) shows the poet like her husband to love and help her. She does not care about body beauty.
(b) in what ways does the poet's use of imaginary convey this idea?
In the story the way poet express of her idea for the poem comparing different between the young people (dingle) lives and the marriage people lives. And she also gives and example of her experiences about how her idea has change when she get married. She tries to say we all have to live what we suppose to live.
[Message #6 10:28:55 AM, Thursday, February 15, 2001]
MarieGrace Calinisan:
Why do you think the poet uses cats and pigs in this poem?
[Message #7 10:28:08 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Joseluis Maldonado:
people want to be as thin as them
[Message #8 10:29:16 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Joseluis Maldonado:
Give us the example that we do not like to be over weight
[Message #9 10:31:39 AM, Thursday, February 15, 2001]
MarieGrace Calinisan:
like pigs
[Message #10 10:26:54 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Amy Strazzarino:
cats are supposed to be graceful where as pigs are always looked upon as big and lazy
[Message #11 10:32:47 AM, Thursday, February 15, 2001]
MarieGrace Calinisan:
makes sense, 'cause cats are so sensitive and afraid of dogs
[Message #13 10:28:56 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Amy Strazzarino:
most people agree the same about the description of the animals
…that is why she used those animals
[Message #16 10:33:53 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Joseluis Maldonado:
to show us that we are some what like animals…so we should be happy about how we look
[Message #19 10:31:48 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Amy Strazzarino:
ballerinas and sumo wrestlers
[Message #20 10:31:41 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Roger Villegas:
In "Cats like Angels," I get the impression that the writer of the piece is someone or is referring to someone who entertains the idea of the Classic male figure and is disgusted with what the male has become. When I speak about the Classic male, I am talking about the man who works 10 hr days as a cowboy on his farm nurturing animals and never says a foul word about it. Then he comes home and prepares some delicious meal in the kitchen and feeds his family. After that he plays with his ten children until they fall asleep in his arms. Even after this he still has the spunk to make hours of mad love to his wife of 40 yrs. This is the real male who doesn't give in to his male made ego. And when I speak of what the male has become, it is that man whose huge man ego has overtaken him completely. He sticks wholly to the values of staying glued to the tv, scratching his feet, drinking a beer, cussing out his wife, and all the while beating his kids.
[Message #21 10:35:08 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maw Aung:
Which one is more important, looking good or inside beauty.
[Message #22 10:32:38 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Amy Strazzarino:
yes, no one is perfect so deal with what you have
[Message #23 10:38:14 AM, Thursday, February 15, 2001]
MarieGrace Calinisan:
yup
[Message #24 10:36:36 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Joseluis Maldonado:
i think the most import part of an person is the inside
[Message #25 10:33:39 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Amy Strazzarino:
society: outside beauty
one on one: inside beauty
[Message #26 10:33:14 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Amy Pfaeffle:
I thought that it was about a girl who grows up thinking that people need to be thin and good looking. She thinks that people cannot be fat and have to be trendy. As she grows older, she becomes more wiser. She learns that it is ok to be fat. She starts to like men who have bellies. The way the author uses imagery to convey my ideas are words like pig which led me to think of the word fat. She also used the word spiny which is another way of saying skinny. In the end, she grows up and learns that it doesn't matter what you look on the outside, but the things that do mater are what are in the inside.
[Message #27 10:37:17 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maw Aung:
yes, you are right
[Message #28 10:38:00 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Joseluis Maldonado:
that is righti
[Message #29 10:39:14 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Joseluis Maldonado:
in what way do we see ourself in the poem
[Message #32 10:35:01 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
1. My understanding of the poem Cats Like Angels is an old woman complaining on how she used to like average men. It seems to be a useless poem. Her opinion is not archaic and in my opinion, did not need to be stated.
2. She talks about male anatomy to grab attention. This poem is mindless.
[Message #33 10:35:44 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Amy Pfaeffle:
What does the title mean?
[Message #34 10:42:22 AM, Thursday, February 15, 2001]
MarieGrace Calinisan:
you've got a point and you have a lot of ideas..
[Message #35 10:37:14 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Amy Strazzarino:
cats are graceful like angels
[Message #36 10:41:06 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Joseluis Maldonado:
could it be about how people see each other
[Message #37 10:41:35 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
carlos sandoval:
angels can look thin fat ugly it does not matter they still go to heaven
[Message #39 10:41:37 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maw Aung:
The title means everyone have to live what we support to live.
[Message #40 10:37:57 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Amy Pfaeffle:
when she uses the words cats are graceful like angels, is she talking about a female person.
[Message #41 10:37:31 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
i think roger has some real insight into what is going on with this poem. The animal parallel offered real insight.
[Message #42 10:44:31 AM, Thursday, February 15, 2001]
MarieGrace Calinisan:
obviously it's kind of vulgar but that's how she feels about it
[Message #43 10:43:15 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
carlos sandoval:
this poem addresses everyday life. the problems people have about looks
[Message #44 10:39:41 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Roger Villegas:
So basically Marie Gracie, do you presume that the narrator of the poem is the author of it, does she believe in the things stated. Or is it cut bare bottom raw, a criticism towards male and female comparative stereotypes
[Message #45 10:41:17 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Roger Villegas:
Jeff, what male anatomy in particular are you speaking of and does it have any connection to barnyard animals
[Message #46 10:46:56 AM, Thursday, February 15, 2001]
MarieGrace Calinisan:
It doesn't say whether or not she's writer of this poem.
[Message #47 10:40:15 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
yes it does
[Message #48 10:45:16 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maw Aung:
yes
[Message #49 10:46:02 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Joseluis Maldonado:
that right
[Message #52 10:43:57 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Amy Strazzarino:
line 12" when I was a girl" the author is the narrator
[Message #53 10:47:05 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maw Aung:
the poet tries to show her experiences in the poem. And she use "I", so she is the one who wrote it.
[Message #54 10:48:08 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
carlos sandoval:
ok we got the point
[Message #60 10:44:46 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Amy Pfaeffle:
i think that this poem has to do with issues of today's society. Many girls think that they have to be skinny and that they should have the perfect body.
[Message #61 10:46:07 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Amy Strazzarino:
yep
[Message #62 10:49:47 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
carlos sandoval:
true good point amy
[Message #63 10:46:12 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Roger Villegas:
there are different sorts of perception. she can be using the word I and yes she did write it but it doesn't have to pertain to her
[Message #64 10:46:27 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Amy Strazzarino:
models are too skinny and slim these days
[Message #65 10:49:57 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Joseluis Maldonado:
the is right, but do not look at the real things in life
[Message #66 10:50:21 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
carlos sandoval:
true they look like they are going to blow away
[Message #67 10:50:48 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Joseluis Maldonado:
making them seem like the living dead
[Message #68 10:50:24 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maw Aung:
yes
[Message #69 10:45:56 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
i think that is archaic and needs not be said, it isn't even a social taboo anymore. i know this poem was written in the 80's but the interpretation should not be focused on women looking to models, people have discredited models
[Message #70 10:47:47 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Roger Villegas:
Yo every poem can be said to be related to society because we all are up in it.
[Message #71 10:46:19 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
oh yeah
[Message #72 10:51:56 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Joseluis Maldonado:
yea baby
[Message #73 10:51:36 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maw Aung:
that's right
[Message #74 10:53:38 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Karen Wong:
From where do you suppose the pressure to be thin originates? What are some of the lines in the poem that lend some insight to this question?
[Message #75 10:56:17 AM, Thursday, February 15, 2001]
MarieGrace Calinisan:
media?
[Message #76 10:49:46 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
i think the pressure is internal but is blown out of proportion by external forces such as society
[Message #77 10:55:06 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
carlos sandoval:
from Aegean times. especially men
[Message #78 10:49:55 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
the media has not always been around
[Message #79 10:54:59 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Joseluis Maldonado:
it come from the world the is around you
[Message #80 10:50:12 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
jeff mix:
media is just a manifestation of societal views
[Message #81 10:55:18 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Karen Wong:
I think Marie Grace is on to something-- not only are there assumptions about what is considered physically beautiful, but also there are assumptions about social roles... message #4 for your reference.
[Message #83 10:52:45 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Amy Strazzarino:
the real pressure to be thin started in the 60's with the model twiggy before it was about being shapely and " womanly"
[Message #84 10:56:33 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
carlos sandoval:
how about men?
[Message #85 10:58:33 AM, Thursday, February 15, 2001]
MarieGrace Calinisan:
so, advertisements are one of the examples
[Message #87 10:56:46 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Karen Wong:
Why do you suppose she shifts from "we" to "you" in the last stanza?
[Message #90 10:57:38 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Joseluis Maldonado:
so women had to big
[Message #91 10:54:23 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Roger Villegas:
girls play with dolls right, victorian women wore corsets didn't they, if the the historic woman was spoken of as beautiful she was thin, it's been going on all throughout history not just the 60's. We just saw it alot more because of tv advertisements
[Message #92 10:58:38 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Joseluis Maldonado:
you are right there
[Message #93 10:58:57 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
carlos sandoval:
she went from from we to you to make you more aware that you could be thinking the same way
[Message #95 10:59:17 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Joseluis Maldonado:
i think it come down to how you feel
[Message #96 10:59:17 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Karen Wong:
Question #7 is interesting-- off the top of my head, she uses animal imagery to suggest that we humans are more than them in that we think, and yet the thinking we do has landed us in the unenviable position of destroying our bodies and our natural abilities. She seems to be inciting us to return to our earthly, natural ways: "peasant bodies, earthy, solid..."
[Message #99 10:59:32 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maw Aung:
she changes we to you is she wants readers to focus on themselves.
[Message #100 11:02:00 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Karen Wong:
Or I suppose that those animals are also associated with gender, cats moreso with females and pigs with men. Cats are huggable, sensitive... while pigs---the stereotype is that when men are jerks, they're considered pigs. Also, they're more inclined to be sloughing around in the dirt. I'm not saying men are this way, but rather that this is one stereotype of men.
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[Message #2 11:20:58 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Corky Silva:
In the Langston Hughes poem, Harlem, there are many uses of imagery within the writing. The poem to me seemed to be a persons description of an area that they live in. This area has many different faces that are seen differently by every person within its limits. The imagery that is used, like "Or fester like a sore", seems to be describing each of these seperate types of visions people have of the area of Harlem.
[Message #3 11:20:40 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maria Cordonero:
The poem I chose is Cats Like Angels by Marge Piercy. After reading it several times, I am not sure what the author of this poem is really trying to say. My understanding is that the author is trying to say that the older she got the more she appreciated what was inside the man as opposed to what was on the outside. When she was younger, she thought that looks and how the man was built is what were important. She is now older, and she realizes that men who looked like they have lived and who have some flesh on them is now to her liking. She realizes that humans are not born to look like poor unfed souls. That people are here to look healthy and strong. She continues to say that we can't allow people to dictate to us how we should look. We are not "supposed to be thin" nor are we "supposed to be fat." We are just supposed to be us.
The way that the author uses imagery to get this idea across to me is by her first two sentences in the poem. She uses the word supposed. "Cats like angels are supposed to be thin; pigs like cherubs are supposed to be fat." It is almost like this saying was written in stone and that is the way it must be. Says who? The way that she described the type of men that she liked when she was younger. With her uses of "spiny and ascetic grimaces", the author clearly liked thin and men with nice smiles. "Faces to cut the eyes blind" is another way of saying that handsome men were to her liking. Now she prefers who are not necessarily thin and who are not afraid to help in the kitchen. In other words, she isn't much into these macho men who think that kitchen work is women's work. I get this by her saying, "who don't think peeling potatoes makes their penis shrink." The author finally ends by saying that looking like fourteen-year-old boys is not how we are meant to look like. We need to be strong. Strong enough to be able to "lift a heavy load" and "to haul up the long slope."
[Message #4 11:21:21 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Alice Wong:
What is your understanding of the poem? (i.e., What specifically is being
said about the theme of conformity and rebellion?
The poem is indicating that the society have became a society where only thin
women is viewed as beautiful. Most of the models and actresses are thin and
almost anorexic-like. Many of them look unhealthy, yet the society have the
idea that being so thin is what makes the women so accepted and famous.
Thus, many of the younger audiences have the image that in order to be
well-liked and successful, they must be thin, being thin is what makes them
beautiful. As a result, many of them take drastic measures to be thin. Not
only are the women being affected, the men are as well. They also have to
maintained a certain figure to be accepted as sexy in the eyes of the
beholder. While the older generation thinks that being thin is not
beautiful, but unhealthy. Many of them would think that having some meat on
their bones is what makes them beautiful and loved by men and women. If a
person is too thin, they are just skin and bones. The society are influenced
by what the see in ads, televisions, magazines as well as what they hear from
radio. This peom just illustrates the different views of people at different
ages.
In what ways does the poet's use of imagery convey this idea?
Piercy used metaphors to convey an image in the reader's mind. For example
the first two sentences, "Cats like angels are supposed to be thin; pigs like
cherubs are supposed to be fat" (335). By doing so, the reader gets the
image of how a cat and angel should look, as well as what the pig and cherub
have in common, their body type. Another image is when the author tells us
the different stages of age. In the second paragraph she tells us what she
had looked for in a man, (appearance wise) when she was a girl in contrast as
to what she look for now that she is older.
[Message #5 11:17:59 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Mario Rosales-mejia:
1) The poem is about the definition of beauty, how the social environment defines beauty or simply normality how we change our perception of beauty with time. The poem can be about expectations that we have about individuals or ourselves
2) "Cats like angels are supposed to be thin;
pigs like cherubs are supposed to be fat.
People are mostly in between,….."Now I look men whose easy bellies…"
"man with broad finger sand purple figgy balls,."
We are not all supposed to look like undernourished fourteen year old boys, no matter what the fashions ordain"
"peasant bodies, earthy, solid shapely dark glazed clay pots that can stand on fire."
[Message #6 11:26:05 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maria Cordonero:
Yes, Alice I agree with you in regards to the first two scentences of this poem. The word that stuck out at me was suppose. I guess it is because that is the image that television or magazine ads give people. Most people on TV and in these magazine ads are thin. And so this is the message that they are giving out to people. That we, especially women, are suppose to be thin.
[Message #7 11:26:01 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Alice Wong:
Maria: you and I have the same basic ideas as to how the author viewed men different as her age changes. As for the work in the kitchen is for women and not men, I didn't really catched that until I read your response.
[Message #8 11:22:19 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Mario Rosales-mejia:
To be honest with you , I have to read the poem like 3 times, the contest and the use of language was a little elevated
[Message #9 11:28:07 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Corky Silva:
yes, maria and alice have the same ideas, but kind with different visiosn, maria uses men as examples while alice used women
[Message #10 11:28:32 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maria Cordonero:
I know what you mean Mario. I also had to read it a few times. Reading poems is like trying to solve a mystery.
[Message #11 11:29:06 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Corky Silva:
that poem was a bit strong in language
[Message #12 11:24:12 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Mario Rosales-mejia:
Alice I think is not only man, i thinks she view the concept of beauty
[Message #13 11:29:18 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Alice Wong:
The poem can be related to both men and women, I just felt that the society today target women more than men. That is why I referred to them more.
[Message #14 11:25:59 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Mario Rosales-mejia:
the poem make me think in my concept of beauty
[Message #15 11:30:50 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Alice Wong:
That's true, it does deal with the concept of beauty.
[Message #16 11:32:25 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Corky Silva:
totally, the vision of beauty is the main idea, how people view others in today's society. The main problem is with women, but i dont think it is universal. Some men do not like that wafer thin girl, same as some women do not like the hulk hogan man.
[Message #17 11:32:04 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maria Cordonero:
What does the last line mean, "When we put our bellies together we do not clatter but bounce on the good upholstery"? I have an idea, but I am not sure.
[Message #19 11:33:53 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Alice Wong:
I think the last line means that they have enough meat on them that they will be bouncing off the furniture opposed to just being there. Therefore the furniture will be used and not just a display
[Message #21 11:34:19 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Alice Wong:
Did that make sense?
[Message #22 11:35:28 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maria Cordonero:
Where I am confused is bellies together. What bellies together?
[Message #23 11:32:44 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Alvin Martin:
Or does it mean a sense of togetherness?
[Message #24 11:31:25 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Mario Rosales-mejia:
the poem is not a individual description is about concept of beauty
[Message #25 11:36:42 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Corky Silva:
i dont eat meat, because of ym dumb ass humanities class and nutrition class, so no steak for me
[Message #34 11:38:04 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Mario Rosales-mejia:
The concept of beauty is learned from society
[Message #35 11:42:48 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
[Message #37 11:41:07 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Alvin Martin:
1) The first two lines in which Piercy writes "cats and angels are 'supposed to be' thin and pigs and cherubs fat" means that she is conveying the message that one person can see another with regards to that person's personality and/or characteristic only. From my standpoint, it matters not what that other person looks like but it's the personality that I'm looking after.
2) When she (Piercy) was a little girl, she was very much attracted to men who were thin, muscular built, and just downright handsome. Now, she admires men who care to be real gentlemen. Men who care less about how they look and who focus more on what needs to be "done around the house".
3) "You" most likely refers to her current significant other. Her other may look obese and unattractive. However, her significant other may be the one she had been yearning for quite a while.
[Message #38 11:39:38 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Mario Rosales-mejia:
You dont want to know what is bellies together
[Message #39 11:45:02 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maria Cordonero:
Yes, I do think that when a person is young looks are important. Maybe not for everybody but for many people. I think it has a lot to do with television.
[Message #40 11:45:37 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Karen Wong:
Great question, Maria-- #17. What did you guys make of this imagery?
[Message #41 11:41:24 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Mario Rosales-mejia:
thats true but for society it is important
[Message #42 11:46:44 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Karen Wong:
In addition to notions about physical beauty, the writer also addresses gender roles. What points does she make? Draw from specific lines in the poems.
[Message #43 11:46:29 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Alice Wong:
I get the image of two not overweight but average couple sitting on a piece of furniture that is well used.
[Message #44 11:42:41 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Mario Rosales-mejia:
the concept of beauty is learned from society,and we go around the concept
[Message #45 11:47:36 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maria Cordonero:
I am thinking that bellies together could mean romance. A couple hugging on a couch or romancing on a couch. It could also have a more explicit meaning.
[Message #46 11:47:20 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Alice Wong:
Maria talks about how the men the author likes now does not care about doing work in the kitchen and doesn't much care about their looks either
[Message #47 11:47:56 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Alice Wong:
That would be a possibility. (Romancing)
[Message #48 11:48:24 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Alice Wong:
I think that's what the gender roles were brought up
[Message #49 11:44:26 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Mario Rosales-mejia:
thats true we associte the beauty with love
[Message #50 11:49:26 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Alice Wong:
It doesn't necessary have to be love, it just have to have the affection of someone that cares
[Message #51 11:51:26 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Corky Silva:
yeah, the imagery is good, but the association to someone loving another because of beauty is always true, if you do not have an attraction to someone, then where will the love come from?
[Message #52 11:46:54 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Mario Rosales-mejia:
can we love a fat person, is easy for us to love a beautiful person, when i said us = society
[Message #53 11:51:53 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maria Cordonero:
It is amazing to me that a title such as Cats like angels could have nothing to do with cats or angels but with the way we interpret beauty.
[Message #54 11:49:03 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Alvin Martin:
In response to #42, Piercy writes, "You are built to pull a cart, to lift a heavy load and bear it..." Here, it is most likely targeted towards a man with a muscular physique. Only men in this category can relate to her quote.
[Message #55 11:52:28 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Alice Wong:
Not necessary, it can be symbolic to the load of difficulties you deal with in life
[Message #56 11:54:01 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Corky Silva:
we do not clatter could refer to not making much of a movement, but bounce on the good upholstery means they are not overweight but, are strong larger people who fall together
[Message #57 11:54:03 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Karen Wong:
Maria and Mario, I completely agree-- poetry is fun because of all the clues that lead you down a path. Which clues especially stood out for you in this poem, and what did you make of them, or what questions were raised?
[Message #58 11:50:38 PM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Alvin Martin:
I response to #51, love can come in many ways.
[Message #59 11:49:12 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Mario Rosales-mejia:
when we talk about a girlfriend to a friend the first question is how she look like
[Message #60 11:54:31 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Karen Wong:
Be more specific about notions of beauty-- what are the dominant notions, and which lines led you to that conclusion?
[Message #61 11:55:31 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Corky Silva:
not really, all men can relate because since we were young we had to be the tough ones that could be strong and there when needed for those type of responsibilities.
[Message #62 11:55:43 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Karen Wong:
Why does Piercey make comparisons between cats and pigs?
[Message #63 11:55:59 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Alice Wong:
I think Piercy made the comparison of cats and pigs because one is supposed to be very thin and light footed while the other is heavy set but smart
[Message #64 11:57:53 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maria Cordonero:
I think that the author makes comparisons between both of these animals is because most cats have (like a lion or a cheetah) are slim. Pigs are normally chubby. I don't think that I have ever seen a skinny pig except for that little pig "Babe."
[Message #65 11:58:02 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Alice Wong:
Babe wasn't that skinny...he still had a little meat on him
[Message #66 11:59:18 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Maria Cordonero:
But they do not necessarily have to be thin or fat. My cat Scarlett weighs 15 pounds, but she is also a long cat.
[Message #67 11:59:24 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Alice Wong:
Isn't it weird how we viewed animals and humans differently? The chubbier the animal is, we said its cut, while a person is viewed beautiful when they are thin
[Message #69 11:59:41 AM, Wednesday, February 14, 2001]
Alice Wong:
I meant cute not cut