Compare and contrast two of the
main characters in The Tortilla Curtain. What
insight(s) about the United States can we learn from these
comparisons? Include one quote from the book (along with its
page number) that lends support to your response, and what
you made of this quote.
The Tortilla Curtain raises many questions about
these issues: society's definitions of success, the American
Dream, environmental issues, immigration, prejudice,
language and symbols of racism. Narrowing down to one of
those issues, generate at least three questions related to
that issue, and then respond to at least one of your
questions in as much detail as you can.
[Message #2 06:07:59 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Sharon Elvander:
Candido is a strong man who wants to support his wife America. He doesn't want her to work because he worries that she can't watch out for herself and protect herself. He seems like he feels that his manhood is in danger when he is injured and can't work because she won't take no for an answer when she says she wants to go to work. He means it when he tells her no, but he is too week to fight her on it. They both know that she must find work untill he heals or they will not survive.
"He forbade her to go. Roared out his rage till his indented cheekbone was on fire, got up on unsteady legs and threatened her with his balled-up fist, but it did no good." (p.49) Candido is getting violent in order to keep America from going to work.
Delaney is very opposite from Candido. He is more like a house dad. His wife goes to work and makes the money and he has no problems with that. Maybe one could say that he is more secure in his manhood than Candido. He knows his wife is a strong woman and can take care of herself. He actually likes staying home and writing or going out into nature.
".....she was the cheif breadwinner here, the one who went off to the office while he stayed home. Which was alright by him. He had none of those juvenile macho hang-ups about role reversal and who wore the pants and all of that......" (p.35) Delaney is happy and more than laid back with the fact that Kyra brings home the money in their home.
[Message #3 06:05:58 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Jiadong Li:
Delaney Mossbacher, as an American writer who lives decently, is a person who believes in those American values and his own ability to make a change in the world. He is concerned about many issues, such as those of environment, beyond the daily life's trivals. He felt that "he stood apart from his fellow men and women, that he saw more deeply and felt more passionately---particularly about nature" (p. 32). He resented (maybe not as much as resented, but at least was annoyed by) the "camping" that went on in the Topanga Canyon, and he even felt rage and anger when he realized that the man, later known as Candido, he hit was camping in the canyon.
Candido Rincon, however, is an Mexican illegal. He had neither the time nor the will to care about any big time issues but his own survival and that of his wife's. After he was hit by the car, he had no sense of being violated and endangered, but he just wanted to get off the road with some money. Certainly, he was worried about his survival, as he persisted on working when his own condition did not permit him to. But in his desperation, he wasn't too much worried about his own health. What he wanted was money to buy beans and food, and the safety of America. He wasn't a "liberal writer" and didn't have a decent job, but he and America all possessed the same dream, the one we call American dream. And their hope was desperate but sincere.
The story began by presenting the two drastically different societies, or classes. The first "better off" class was, to some extent, spoiled by the successful achievement of American dream of their father's generation. "Why can't I have sugar pops or Honey Nut Cheerios..." "I hate granola..."(pp 34-35). However, the second class was too worried about their daily necessity and survival to think about anything else but a house with four walls and a roof. "Is that too much to ask for?" they wondered. And both of the classes collide in the same place, Topanga Canyon, simbolizing the complex and terribly diverse culture of America.
[Message #4 06:06:07 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Heather Hodges:
America Rincon and Kyra Mossbacher are two characters in the story The Tortilla Curtain. Although they are both women living in the United States, trying to make a good life for them and their families, they are in two completely different worlds. Kyra is a working real estate agaent who is very passionate about her job. She is the breadwinner in the familiy and her husband Delany has no problems with staying home and looking after Kyra's son Jordan.
Kyra and her family live in a rather new community called Arroyo Blanco Estates where they have a nice house and a couple of dogs, well they HAD acouple of dogs, now they only have one.
America is the 17 year old, pregnant wife of Candido Rincon. They live together in a camp they have set up in a ravine in Topanga Canyon. An unfortunate accident causes Candido to be out of work so America insists on going to find work even though she will be the only women there. This upsets Candido and he is constantly worrying about her the whole time she is gone. While she is there she meets a grubby american woman who smells of liqour and is trying to find work herself. America can't believe that a "gringa" in her own country can have the same problem finding a job that she, an illeagal immigrant was having,"she was a criada, a maid, a cleaning lady, here in her own country, and as fantastic as it seemed, she was competing for the same non existant jobs America was." (p.58).
[Message #5 06:02:31 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
ann ly:
Two of the characters that I was mainly interested in was Delaney and Candido. After Delaney accidently runs over Candido along the coast highway, I am shocked to see that Delaney is able to turn away from Candido after giving him just twenty bucks (pg.9) "Monee? he whispered... Okay,yes, money..." and feel that he at least did something. Candido being an illegal immigrant feels that he could not ask for anything but money. I feel that even though Candido was illegal he should have taken the medical assistant offered by Delany because he was in critical conditon, he had a concussion! And suprisingly he was able to continue walking after Delaney offers him money. With Candido being able to walk away I think that Delaney feels that he is not as injured as he thought he would be. But I still do not think that it is okay for Delaney to let Candido continue walking away in his condition. The worst part about this was that when the accident happened there were at least hundreds of cars that drove by, and not did one car stop to offer assistant or help. Surely someone must have seen the accident occur. But suppose the witness that saw the accident did not bother to stop because Candido was mexican. Another thing that really made me upset was that not long after the accident Delaney had the nerve to let himself become mad at Candido because he was mexican and assumed that they were the ones doing all the littering in their neighborhood. (pg.11) "...like this Mexican or whatever he was who were responsible, thoughtless people, stupid people, people who wanted to turn the whole world into a garbage dump, a little Tijuana..." How can Delany say something like this after what he did to Candido? I just cannot understand how he is able to reverse his anger on Candido when I feel Candido should be the one angered. With Delany he does not have to worry about money or his health because he has what many people can say the American Dream, and for Candido? he came to capture the American Dream but at the rate that he is going it does not seem that it will ever come true for him and America.
[Message #6 06:09:00 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Sharon, great comparison between Delaney and Candido about the roles they play in their families, and their attitudes about women's and men's roles. What larger meaning did you get from this portrayal?
[Message #7 06:09:32 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Jiadong Li:
Sharon, I agree with you on the part that Delany is more secure in his manhood than Candido. What I want to add is that whereas Candido has nothing beyond his physiques to be manly, Delany has many more.
[Message #8 06:11:25 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Lipton, interesting points you raise about their class differences. Everyone, do you think that people have to be economically stable in order to think about these larger issues such as the environment? Is a progressive agenda only for those who have the luxury to think that way? Also, do you think that Delaney's assessment of himself is accurate?
[Message #9 06:12:43 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Heather, how are America and Kyra different in terms of the opportunities available to them? What can we infer about the American Dream?
[Message #10 06:14:48 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Good points, Ann, about all of the stereotypes confronting Candido. It seems as if everyone ignored the accident because they were moving at too fast of a pace, concerned only for their own well being. Candido seems well aware of the fact that he has no rights; his life, and that of America's, seems entirely governed by fear.
[Message #11 06:13:55 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Jiadong Li:
Ann, I think one other reason for Candido's not asking for money is his misunderstanding of laws, provided that he IS an illegal immigrant. And also, with his immediate concerns for his wife and daily life, he couldn't imagine nor permit himself to be taken care of in a medical center or a hospital. A strong sense of responsibility, isn't it.
[Message #12 06:15:37 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Karen Wong:
True, Lipton, #7. Everyone, what else does Delaney have as a way of expressing his manhood?
[Message #13 06:17:40 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
wesam eteiwi:
DELANEY MOSSBACHER- WHO SOUNDS TO BE MORE OF A FAMILY DAD, DOESN'T NOT MIND IF HIS WIFE GOES OUT AND MAKES THE INCOME IN THE FAMILY WHILE HE STAYS AT HOME AND TAKES CARE OF THE CHILDREN. ("HE HAD NONE OF THOSE JUVENILE MACHO HANG -UPS ABOUT REVERSAL AND WHO WORE THE PANTS AND ALL OF THAT"PG35)
CANDIDO- IS VERY MALE ORIENTED BY NOT WANTING HIS WIFE TO HAVE A JOB AN ILLEGAL MEXICAN, HE JUST WANTED TO WALK AWAY FROM THE CAR ACCIDENT WITH SOME CASH AND HIS HEALTH.
[Message #14 06:17:47 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Sharon Elvander:
I think that the difference in Candido and Delaney's cultures and class make a huge difference in their additudes about their families. Candido has seen what can happen to America, almost being raped, when he was there to protect her so what could happen when he is not there is something he doesn't even want to imagine. If Candido and America lived in a rich white neighborhood like Delaney and Kyra than Candido wouldn't have to worry so much about America's well being.
[Message #16 06:19:31 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Sharon Elvander:
Jiadong: That is a good point. Candido has nothing to make him feel secure or safe for him or America. Delaney has virtually nothing to make him feel that is family is unsafe.
[Message #17 06:16:49 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Jheremy Toledo:
Ann, maybe Delaney was trying to make himself feel better after hitting Candido. Delaney is living the American Dream, and he doesnt want anything to ruin it. Candido is striving to achieve this dream, and i agree that "it does not seem that it will ever come trie for him and America."
[Message #18 06:18:52 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Sharon and Lipton, I like that you explore how the characters' background and prior experiences inform their beliefs.
[Message #19 06:14:57 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
ann ly:
response to heather hodges:You are absolutely correct about America and Kyra being two entirely different people in society. And this is due because of the social class that they belong to. America is hard working and seeks to find work in any way that she can but the work that she can offer will never be as successful as Kyra being a real estate agent. kyra not only works for the money but because she likes doing real estate and it is her life. Where on the other hand America is seeking for work not because she likes to do it but because she needed to buy food for her and Candido. I think that America is a strong girl with her being pregnant and all at the age of 17 but still insists on taking over when Candido is injured. But America is trying to gain what everybody else came to America for and that is to become successful in achieving the American Dream.
[Message #20 06:19:27 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Heather Hodges:
Kyra has a lot of opportunites open to her. She is very sucessful real estate agent who has many clients that continue to go to her for her expertise. America on the other hand has little or no opportunities because she is an illegal immigrant and a woman. When she goes to the Labor Exchange to find work they will not give her any because she is female. Determined to get work she stays there all day in the heat and still no opportunitiy comes calling on her. I don't think it is fair. She is capable of working just as much as the men if not more because she is younger and has more energy than some of the older men who go to the Labor Exchange for work.
[Message #21 06:19:30 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Jiadong Li:
response to #6:The answer is definitely yes. A fly doesn't think about how big and wild a world is, neither does it want to explore the world because it only has so long to live and so much to eat, where as a seasonal bird needs to explore every warm area possible. In the cases of human, it's more or less the same, except that the wealthier class doesn't explore for the sake of survival as seasonal birds, but for the sake of their passion or satisfaction, while the poorer class DOES live to live.
[Message #22 06:21:19 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Well, Delaney's family per se doesn't appear to be threatened in any way, but his dogs clearly were endangered. Do you suppose the fence in his backyard could serve as a metaphor for the entire story? What does the fence symbolize? What are the other instances in the book when a fence is mentioned?
[Message #24 06:24:08 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Sharon Elvander:
I don't think that you have to have money to be concerned about the environment. I think that many rich people could care less. Like Delaney says he is different from most people in the sense that he is so concerned about the environment. I just think that people that are not economically stable have much more important things to worry about like if they will be able to put food on the table for their families. They also don't have the money or the power or the time to do anything about environmental issues.
[Message #25 06:25:21 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Isabel Khedr:
"Delany's first thought was for the car (was it marred, scratched, dented?)..." (p.4) Do you think because Delany's first thought after the accident was the what shape his car was in, is a result of his being considered "upper class?"
[Message #26 05:19:46 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Alanna Hubbert:
I agree with Sharon in that Delaney's and Candido's differences in class makes an impact on how they view their world around them. Being in these two drastic environments puts a whole different twist to their well being.
[Message #27 06:21:42 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Jheremy Toledo:
(taking a guess) could the fence be the Tortilla Curtain? A barrier from both sides of the economic classes?
[Message #28 06:19:26 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
ann ly:
Response to Sharon Elvander:I like how you spoke about candido trying to do everything he can in his condition to stop America from finding work to put food in their stomachs. but America is not a bit afraid because she knows that candido is only worried for her safety. America knows that she has to be strong and take control in order for the two of them to survive.
[Message #29 06:23:05 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Heather Hodges:
I forgot to add that the American Dream for some people comes much easier than for others. Some people are just lucky enough to be brought up in the right neighborhood, with money and their goals are much more obtainable from where they are standing. Whereas someone like America who isn't from the US and is an illegal, female immigrant will find it much, much more difficult to even get a job scrubbing someone's floor's. It is quite disturbing.
[Message #30 06:26:03 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Sharon Elvander:
I think Delaney expresses his manhood in the sense that he is a good husband and father. He would do anything for his wife to make her happy. His family is his main concern and for that I consider him to be a good man.
[Message #31 06:25:11 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Karen Wong:
True Ann, both America and Kyra work really hard, and both are very concerned about the well being of their families. What I found rather ironic about Kyra was her lack of awareness. Here she is, trying to do something that is "personal" so as to connect with her clients, and yet she doesn't seem really in tune with her own family.
[Message #32 06:26:14 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Can you guys think of any equivalent Labor Exchanges in the Bay Area? Why do you suppose that primarily men are present at these exchanges? Why, for instance, was there some resistance against America being there?
[Message #34 06:30:49 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Isabel Khedr:
I think that men are mostly present at these exchanges because its obvious that people are more eager to hire men than they are women because men are more physical
[Message #35 06:27:16 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Jheremy Toledo:
It seems like Candido has TOO much pride to let America to work. He wants to be the BREADWINNER for his family. Maybe he should let America work so they can be PROVIDERS instead.
[Message #36 06:32:00 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
wesam eteiwi:
I THINK YOU TOUCH ON MANY GOOD POINTS ANN, THE ISSUE THAT CANDIDO BEING AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT AND ONLY EXCEPTED CASH FROM DELANEY IS A GOOD POINT. I THINK CANDIDO WAS HAPPY WITH WHATEVER DELANEY OFFERED HIM DUE TO THE FACT THAT WE IS AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT. DELANEY WAS ALSO WRONG BY LETTING CANDIDO WALK AWAY FROM THE CAR WRECK WITH NO MEDICAL ATTENTION.
[Message #37 06:31:02 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Isabel, yeah, Delaney seems to be very concerned about the image that he projects to others, and his car is part of that visual package. Everything about he and Kyra smacks of middle America, even the description of them on page 34. They're part of that new breed of a moderately progressive, young couple that buys their household goods at Crate and Barrel, that is careful to maintain their weight and health, and that is careful to belong, I would venture, to the "right" sort of club even such as The Sierra Club.
[Message #38 06:30:21 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Jiadong Li:
Response to 32: what those kind of Labor Exchanges in the book needs is physical strength, and comparatively, men have more of that. However, the resistance America met was not primarily resulted from the demand of Labor Exchanges but the overwhelming number of men in those exchanges.
[Message #39 06:30:30 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Heather Hodges:
At the meeting Delany goes to the big "issue" is weather or not to put up a gate around their community to keep out the thugs, thieves, gangbangers, and taggers. Some people in the community want the gate and other feel that it will trap them in and if the wanted to live in a gated community they would have chosen to in the first place. Now that you mention it I can see that maybe a fence is a metaphor for something bigger to come in the story.
[Message #41 06:34:24 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Sharon Elvander:
Candido and America are afraid of being deported, or not finding work which they need to make money to buy food to survive. Survival is the most important thing to them. Delaney and Kyra are afraid of gang bangers or muggers or burglars coming into their precious rich white neighborhood. Delaney is afraid that people are ruining the environment, and Kyra worries about whether or not she will sell certain properties. Delaney and Kyra's fears are petty compared to those of America and Candido.
[Message #42 06:28:19 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
ann ly:
response to wesam wteiwi:I think that what you say about delaney not caring about the role being reversed is great. It lets us see that for some people they do not have to go with what society views as a man's role in the household. Delaney feels that he is no less of a man being at home and taking care of Jordan. In fact he enjoys being at home and being able to have time to himself to write and escape the real world. As for candido, I feel that when he was injured in the accident the only thing that he could ask for was money because he was illega and maybe him being to serious about taking care of America and not wanting her to work because he fears that something horrible might happen to her.
[Message #44 06:32:10 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Heather Hodges:
Very good thought Jeremy. I kept on wondering what "The Tortilla Curtain" really was.
[Message #45 06:37:36 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
wesam eteiwi:
BUT IF CANDIDO AND AMERICA ARE REALLY ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS THEN OF COURSE THEIR STRUGGLE TO ACHEIVE THE AMERICAN DREAM IS GOING TO BE MUCH DIFFICULT THEN ANY PERSON WHO WAS ACTUALLY BORN IN THE STATES. TO HAVE THE POSSIBILITY OF ACHEIVING THE "AMERICAN DREAM" WOULDN'T HELP TO ACTUALLY BE AMERICAN?
[Message #46 06:37:45 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Sharon Elvander:
There are probably mostly men at the labor exchange because those men feel the same way Candido feels. They want to bring home the dinner and have their wife cook it. Also a lot of those men are on their own. They have crossed the border looking for opportunities and most women would not leave their homes with out their men.
[Message #47 06:38:01 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Isabel Khedr:
i wonder if the Tortilla Curtain is really a divider between the two classes, will the two couples ever go through the "curtain?"
[Message #48 06:36:07 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Karen Wong:
good connection, Heather, #39. Arroyo Blanco wants to put up a fence to keep out the bad elements in society. What, then, is the tortilla curtain? And do we have any sense so far that erected fences will serve its desired purpose?
[Message #49 05:32:49 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Alanna Hubbert:
In my opinion,the fence symbolizes fear and denial. Fear of wild animals, lower class people, anything that desicrates their perfect community. Delaney and his community plan to block out the problems of society today by building this barrier between them and the real world. They feel threatened already by a few incidents (houses being robbed), and they think building a fence will solve all the fears they deal with within their community.
[Message #50 06:39:55 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Isabel Khedr:
Yes, but if they put up the fence, wouldnt the families in the community become scared of the "outside world" if the fence kept out all the "bad things"?
[Message #51 06:38:48 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Karen Wong:
You're certainly on to something about the fences, Alanna, #49. Everyone, keep toying with what the fence is intended to separate: the rich from the poor as Isabel commented, the problems of the real world from their gated community, and?
[Message #52 06:40:43 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
wesam eteiwi:
THE TORTILLA CURTAIN COULD STAND FOR THE LONG RELATIONSHIP AMERICA HAS HAD WITH MEXICO AND ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS COMING OVER SEEKING WORK IN AMERICAN COMPANIES FOR A MUCH LOWER WAGE.
[Message #53 06:39:38 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Karen Wong:
True, Sam, #52. What form has this tortilla curtain taken on in the way of laws, policies, expressed attitudes?
[Message #54 06:37:57 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Jheremy Toledo:
The title can represent "curtain" that divides the two classes. On one side...people living The American Dream...and on the other...people striving to acheive it. It couldn't be called "The Tortilla WALL" because some people eventually achieve this dream.
[Message #55 06:39:17 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Heather Hodges:
Response to Sam: I thoough the same thing. I think if you do happen to be AMERICAN it would help considerably in obtaining the American Dream, maybe that is why they call it that. Bu to the othe hand there are some americans who are living in camps and eating rice and beans as well.
[Message #56 06:42:07 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Sharon Elvander:
I agree with Jheremy that the fence could be the "Tortilla Curtain" but I also think that simply the barrier, and not the fence, between the two different families could be considered "The Tortilla Curtain". The difference in class and race and the different needs wants and expectations are all pieces of "The Tortilla Curtain".
[Message #57 06:42:14 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
wesam eteiwi:
WELL IT CERTAINLY BROUGHT TO PLAY THE WHOLE NAFTA AGREEMENT
[Message #58 06:42:41 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Isabel Khedr:
I think the and is the fact that the families want to create the belief that there really can be a safe place to live, work and let their children play.
[Message #59 06:42:33 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
wesam eteiwi:
BETWEEN CANADA AMERICA AND MEXICO
[Message #60 06:36:12 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
ann ly:
response to message #29:ann, Yes this is true heather, for everyone it is very important what their background is because that determines a huge part in whether achieving the American Dream will be hard or easier for some people. Not only is this but anything such as financial background, where you live, your gender, ethnic backgorund or even the way you look all contributes to how hard or easy it will be for a person to achieve the american dream
[Message #61 05:37:09 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Alanna Hubbert:
you bring up a really good question about going thru the cutain isabel, whether there will be a point where the dividing lines of classes is broken or if any of the couples overcome their fears in society
[Message #62 06:40:08 PM, Monday, May 01, 2000]
Jiadong Li:
curtain, keep out the bad things, lower class people, thugs. America has been teaching us the value of equality, and yet it teaches as fast as it creates or attracts "lower class people", and as fast as it raises the curtain that blocks the equality. Ironic.
[Message #2 01:06:41 PM, Tuesday, May 02, 2000]
Lew Deanna:
The insights about the U.S. that we learn are it is related to every day life that still happens still to this day. We watch it on the news about low income wages where people will work just to get some form of income no matter what they do. ... America was only 17 yrs. old and was married to Candido who was 33 yrs.old. There's a 16 yrs. gap between the two. In the U.S., that would be considered illegal because she's isn't 18 yrs.old yet. Our laws are strict compared to other countries. Since Candido was hurt America wanted to find a job so that they could get food to survive. But Candido stated " Besides, there are no jobs for women there, only for men with strong backs. They want braceros, not maids" (pg.27). I question Candido concern. He could be egotic letting his pride get in the way of her earning money to support their family or he really cares about his wife and the child that is in her womb and doesn't want her life be jeopardize. Candido and America prove the old tradional ways of a family. While Delaney and Kyra, were more of a modern family by Kyra being the breadwinner of the family working a for MIke Bender Realty, Inc. while Delaney stayed home and wrote and took care of the Jordan. They also had a more richer things in life like a Lexus , house, and pets...(Not finished)
[Message #3 01:17:48 PM, Tuesday, May 02, 2000]
Yasuko Kobayashi:
Dalaney a successful writer, we can say that he accomplished "the American Dream" of success. On the other hand there is Candido, who is an illegal immigrant, in search for a better future for him and his wife. These two characters illustrate the two extremes of the success in the United States. Dalaney worries about home issues, while Candido is worried for his survival.
The United States gives false hope for those who seek "a better life". America proves this when she says, "I want one of those houses, a clean white one made out of lumber that smells like the mountains, with a gas range and a refrigerator, and maybe a little yard so you can plant a garden and make a place fot the chickens" (pg.29) The chances of a immigrant (especially an illegal immigrant) finding a great job is quite slim. Delaney and Candido illlustrates the harsh reality of success and opportunity in the United States. (Not finished)
[Message #2 01:01:48 PM, Tuesday, May 02, 2000]
Savar Uban:
One of the main characters in The Tortilla Curtain is Delaney Mossbacher. He's a caucasian who lives in a neighborhood in the outerskirts of Los Angeles. Delaney's a writer for Wide Open spaces, which is about a naturalist's (Delaney) observations with his surroundings, and he does all his writing at home (p. 32). He's also a human rights activist on issues such as overpopulation, desertification, depletion of seas and forests, global warming and loss of habitat (p. 32). He's married to a woman, Kyra, who already has a child, Jordan, and is also the breadwinner of the family, but he doesn't mind her making most of the money. Both Delaney and Kyra have many similarities - perfectionists, joggers, nonsmokers, social drinkers, human rights activists - which makes them compatible with each other(p. 34).
Another character is Candido, a Mexican who sneaks into the U.S. with his second wife, America. Candido has been to the U.S. before working in places such as Idaho and Arizona. During those times, he was married before to America's older sister, Resurrection, but she left him for another man while he was in the states. What happens to him one day while in the U.S. is he gets run over by Delaney, who pays him $20 dollars. (Was unable to finish answering 2nd question...)
[Message #3 01:11:20 PM, Wednesday, May 03, 2000]
Thanh Tran:
Delaney Mossbacher is a rich man but he's so irresponsible. He lives in the U.S, in a big house with full of necessity and he is a selfish guy. We can see it clearly when he hit the man on the street, the first thing he care about his car. He seems didn't care what happen to the man was hit. Lack of responsible, he just pay that man $20 dollar. He didn't call the police or ambulance or anything. The only thing he did was asking the man: Are you okay? Can I help you? (p.7). When he got back home, he just thinking about that man but he totally forgot what happen when his dog die. Is it true that with the rich people, their dog's life is more valuable than a man life? Where's the equal thing that they are usually talking about?
Candido is a man that Delaney hit. He's so poor and a illegal immigrant from Mexican. His life like a dog with no hope and lacking of necessity. He's a responsible man but he doesn't have chance. He wants to take care of his wife but he has no money. He wants to kept his promise to her about houses and kid but he can't. They are living "like rats in a hole and live on blanket beside a stream that would run dry in a month" (p.29).The American dream in his exist but the chance didn't come. Or maybe it not yet to come?
[Message #5 01:05:01 PM, Tuesday, May 02, 2000]
Savar Uban:
very good comments u brought up, thanh... that's what i was going to get at eventually. it does seem that delaney values that dog more than another human being. perhaps, if candido was caucasian then it might be different. candido does go back to u.s. to try and have better lifestyle, but it's been rough for him so far - getting run over.
[Message #7 01:17:02 PM, Wednesday, May 03, 2000]
Thanh Tran:
SU, Your point is good too. It's so disgusting about the way Delaney treat other peole. He's not a great person . he's not a good writer like I thought he was. He's so cheap and disgust. I think that because he's living in US illegal so he dare not to say anything, Or may be he expect more but Delaney just give him $20. So he scare to ask for more?
[Message #9 01:17:11 PM, Tuesday, May 02, 2000]
Savar Uban:
you're right, thanh. candido doesn't say too much to delaney for reasons being: he was dazed & confused after being run over, doesn't speak that much english, & doesn't want to be reported to the immigration.
[Message #10 01:22:23 PM, Tuesday, May 02, 2000]
Savar Uban:
delaney didn't do anything else besides give candido money. he didn't take him to the hospital, or reported it to the police. after giving him the money, delaney just took off and went about his business. but when his wife's dog was captured by a coyote, he went to the extremes of trying to save that dog.
[Message #2 05:49:29 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
ann ly:
Society's definition of success is achieving the American Dream. This is what Candido and America want to achieve so they can have a future with their unborn baby. Although they are not asking for much but for work and shelter. they want to be able to have a roof over their head when America is ready to give birth and in order for them to do that they must have money. To me I feel that Candido and America are not asking for too much like society would view the American Dream of. They simply want to have a roof over their head, clean clothes and work so they can have money to buy food. Even if they were to achieve all of these things many people would have to agree that they are no where close to achieving the American Dream. In society the American Dream mainly means being wealthy and being successful in a decent career. Candido and America has unequal access in obtaining this dream because they are Mexican-Americans and they do not speak any english. Speaking the language also helps an American get better access to a good job opportunity that can lead to acheiving the American Dream. Although Candido is hard working he finds that his work is very limited and society tends to not care for illegals in their land looking for work. "when he looked up and it hit him: there was nothing there....It was as if a hurricane wind had come up into the night, a tornado, and sucked the whole thing up into the sky" (p.107). Now there was no hope for Candido because the labor exchange has been shutdown due to Americans being tired of giving work to people like Candido. The Americans were upset that they had a unemployment rate themselves. Because Candido and America are illegals they cannot find jobs easily and counted on the labor exchange. For me the bigger question is why do so many people want to achieve the American Dream when there is unequal access to it for minorities.
[Message #3 06:01:36 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Sharon Elvander:
1) Why do stereotypes placed on different races make people feel intimidated by and even predjudice against races other than their own?
ANSWER: I believe people feel intimidated by other races because they believe what they hear instead of educating themselves or getting to know a person for who they are on the inside. If they think that all Latino people are immigrants then they may also believe that they will all be theives because they come to the U.S. illegally and can only get low paying jobs. Then they will feel scared whenever they see a Latin person, thinking they may get robbed."None of them dared approach her........but they all watched her as she stepped out of the car, and their eyes were wistful, proud, indifferent. They'd take on a different look if she crossed the lot." (p 157) This tells me that Kyra felt safer with these "Mexicans" being far enough away from her that she didn't have to talk to them, but maybe if they were up close they would violate her or bother her in some way.
2) How can people change the stereotypes put into their minds by society's way of thinking?
3) Why might people dislike or discriminate against someone because they speak a different language?
[Message #4 05:59:12 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Isabel Khedr:
Does living in a certain area fuel racism more than other areas?
I think that living in a certain area does fuel racism more than living in other areas. For example, in the book, Jack jr and his friend go to Candido and America's campsite and they ruin it. They threw everyhting in the stream and tore up Americas dress. "Fucking Beaners. Rip it up, man. Destroy it" (p.62). They had no remorse for the fact that Candid and America were living there and not bothering anyone. Also, when Delany was at the Community center, and he overheard Jack jr and a friend talking about college, and the language hey were using to talka bout minorities wasn't in a complimenting way. Delany realized that because he was living in this area, there was a chance that Jordan was going to turn out like Jack jr and his friend. "...was that the way he [Jordan] was going to turn out?
...he'd tried to tell kyra over this wall business--it might keep them out, but look what it keeps in" (p.224).
Are people who grew up in a "mixed" area influenced by other peoles way of thinking?
Why do most wealthy people think that all minorities are beggars, theives, and poor?
[Message #5 05:59:24 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jheremy Toledo:
Symbols of racism showed up towards the end of chapter 4. Two boys, Candido has never seen before, were looking through his and America' s stuff. Thinking they were INS agents, Candido was "...crouched behind the rocks, afraid to breathe, trembling as uncontrollably as if he'd suddenly been plunged into an ice bath..." (p.60). He then realized tha they were two redheads. When they finally left, he emerged from the rocks, and found their parting gift. "The letters were crude and the words in English, but there was no mistaking the meaning: Beaners Die" (p.62).
Why does such hatred exist toward the Mexicans? I think that the hatred comes from these Americans because they think that the Mexicans should come here legally. Most Americans feel a hatred toward not only Mexicans, but to all illegal aliens in this country. So maybe this hate sign is not directed to all Mexicans, but to all illegal aliens?
Do these "overgrown" boys really know the impact of these astonishing words?
After all the pain, the suffering and this death threat, why doesn't Candido give up on achieving this "American Dream" and go home?
Whatcha think?
[Message #6 06:01:44 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Karen Wong:
For those of you writing about the American Dream, what does it take to achieve the American Dream? What obstacles exist? What notions are there about undocumented workers/ illegal immigrants?
[Message #7 05:59:36 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
wesam eteiwi:
IMMIGRATION
1)HOW CAN A COUNTRY LIKE AMERICA CUT DOWN ON ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION COMING FROM OTHER COUNTRIES?
2)HOW DOES ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION HURT COUNTRIES LIKE THE US?
3)WHAT IS THE CURRENT COUNT OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS COMING TO THE US?
2) ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION HURTS THE US IN MANY WAYS. ONE SPECIFIC REASON THAT ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION HURTS THE US IS BY THE IDEA THAT ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ARE TAKING AWAY THE BLUE COLLAR WORK FORCE AWAY FROM CITIZENS OF THE US. THESE ARE JOBS LIKE HOUSE KEEPING, PAINTING, GARDENING AND SO ON, JOBS THAT DON'T TAKE TOO MUCH EDUCATION TO ACHEIVE. ALL THESE JOBS REALLY NEED IS A PERSON WILLING TO DO THE WORK AND HAVE A GOOD BACK. "IT'S A SIMPLE QUESTION, SO MUCH IN, SO MUCH OUT. THE ILLEGALS IN SAN DEIGO COUNTY CONTIBUTED 70 MILLION IN TAX REVENUES AND AT THE SAME TIME THEY USED UP TO 240 MILLION IN SERVICES-WELFARE,EMERGENCY CARE, SCHOOLING AND THE LIKE. YOU WANT TO PAY FOR THAT? AND FOR THE CRIME THAT COME WITH IT?(PG 102)
TO MANY AMERICANS, ILLEGAL IMMIGRANS ARE COSTING THE US ALOT OF MONEY AND POLLUTING THE NATION. AMERICA NEEDS TO PUT SOME TYPE OF QUOTA ON HOW MANY IMMIGRANTS IT WILL EXCEPT EACH YEAR SO THAT PEOLE THAT DO LIVE IN AMERICA CAN LIVE COMFORTABLY.
[Message #8 06:01:06 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Isabel Khedr:
I think that Candido's ego is much to big for him to go home, he realizes that if he went home, he would just be a failure. message #5
[Message #9 05:58:34 AM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Pablo Rios:
q1.) Why is it that all americans view all latinos as macho and Mexicans?
q2.) Did you notice how they portray Delaneys family? Ma Pa Boy dogs
q3.) How does America view the whites she comes accross?
Answer to question 3. Its funny to me how America remembers how her life was back in th villiage and that all though they were poor they all had food and a place to stay and work though hard, they had that too. She thinks that all white people in this country have it easy and are well off, but as she goes through here daily routines she sees that even white people are encountering many financial difficulties. Like in earlier chapters when she comes accross a white begger and a white drunk woman looking for work in the labor hall and in the later chapters when Mary (the drunk woman)is working the same job as her for the same blue eyed patron.
[Message #10 06:02:53 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Alanna Hubbert:
environmental issues
1) How do you distinguish between what should be developed for human capacity and what should be preserved for wildlife?
2) How do you keep wildlife protected from civilization, and vise versa?
3) Is the constant development of cities and communities always an advantage to us or a disadvantage?
Answer to question #2... "if we continue to insist on encroaching on the coyote's territory with our relentless urban and suburban development... if we invade his teritory, then why indeed should we be surprised when he invades ours" (p212)? This quote shows the helplessness we feel at trying to protect each other from each other
[Message #11 06:00:32 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jo Untalan:
!.)Do you think that Delaney accomplished the American Dream already, how so? If not please explain.
2.)Is the American dream just for Americans?
3.)How did Candido and America define the American Dream?
They defined the American Dream as having a gringo house with a gas range, refrigerator, a garden, and a place for the chickens .
"They'd have a place by the time the rains came in the fall, he'd promised her..." (Boyle, 1995, p. 139)
"I want one of those houses," she said. "A clean white one made out of lumber that smells like the mountains, with a gas range. a refrigerator, and maybe a little yard so you can plant a garden and make a place for the chickens. That's what you promised me, didn't you?" (Boyle, 1995, p. 29)
[Message #12 06:03:06 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Isabel Khedr:
when you hear the words "illegal alien," what nationality automatically comes to mind?
[Message #13 06:05:04 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Sharon, you're on to an interesting question, and that is what fuels stereotypes beyond ignorance? You've proposed that one answer may be fear of being harmed. What else are people fearful of? What else fuels the negative stereotypes?
[Message #14 06:07:57 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Sharon Elvander:
Isabel: I agree with you that the area a person lives in can fuel the fire of racism, but what about the way they are raised? Do you think that a child could grow up in a very diverse environment and have racist parents and still not be racists themselves?
[Message #15 05:58:09 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
ann ly:
In response to Sharon: I feel that people discriminate against others who speaks different languages because they are too caught up in themselves believing that there are more superior than others. And so if they see someone who they know cannot speak english they feel that there are automatically smarter and more better than they really are. People who look at other people from the outside and make assumptions about them without getting to know them from inside are not too bright in my book. I have to agree with the saying "you cannot judge a book by its cover".
[Message #16 06:04:07 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
wesam eteiwi:
STEROTYPES WILL ALWAYS EXIST BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL ALWAYS BE IGNORANT TO CULTURE THEY ARE NO T FAMILIAR WITH. THERE IS NOTHING MUCH WE CAN DO TO STOP THESE HATE CRIMES BUT TO JUST HOPEFULLY LEARN AND EDUCATE PEOPLE AROUND US.
[Message #17 06:07:18 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Isabel, like Sharon, you're exploring the roots of prejudice, a fascinating question, I think. Where do you suppose Jack Jr. is getting his ideas? Also, consider the significance of their fenced in enclave, Arroyo Blanco. What might it symbolize?
[Message #18 09:06:51 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jiadong Li:
Questions: (About immigration)
1. Who is to pity, the illegal immigrants running the chance of being knocked down on the freeway, or the offended, violated but prejudicial and even cruel local people?
2. A fence may be able to block out the snakes, coyotes, and many other ground animals, but what good does it do when facing men, men with the same intelligence, although much less education, as the builder of the fence?
3. When we treat an illness we want to find the primary reason for the illness. Why the community erect the fence? Is the community in the book treating illegal immigration and wilderness by finding the primary reason, or is it not?
Response to #3:Kyra's dog was killed by a coyote who somehow managed to overcome the six-foot-fence that was originally set up outside the backyard. Kyra was outraged and ran after the coyote and Delaney. She was mad and upset, yet she did not fear the koyote exactly. However, when she confronted a man, an illegal Mexican, she confronted fear: "her voice quavered, she could hear it herself, gone lame and flat" (164). It's the fear, the exact fear which made Kyra lost her arrogance, made the people in the community erect those fences, one after another, one on the top of another. Fear is the reason for this action, however, fear can as well blind the people in the community from realizing the primary cause of fear.
Let's look at what made the people fear illegal Mexicans: because they were dirty, because they caused trouble, raised crime rate, destroyed nature, stole cars, or blocked traffic. Yes, those were true, and with the desire to rid that fear of theirs, the community simple-mindedly decided to put up a fence and keep out all the dangerous things. What's the outcome? "It was a shopping cart." (161). Men were capable of overcoming difficulties better than animals, and physical barrier couldn't keep them out. The essence of the illegal immigration going on over the boarder was the difference between wealth, an understanding even Candido and America had, but still not clear to the people in the community. It's the house with four walls and a roof that attracted illegal immigration, and fences wouldn't stop that.
[Message #19 06:07:51 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jheremy Toledo:
The media plays a big part of this way of thinking. Whenever "illegal aliens" come up, Cubans and/or Mexicans are being shown.
[Message #20 06:08:24 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Isabel Khedr:
Of course I think that the way you are raised has a lot to do with the person you grow up to be, but if you do have racist parents and you grow up around minorities, I think that there is a good chance that the child wont be racist.
[Message #21 06:12:27 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Sharon Elvander:
ANSWER TO MS. WONG: The way a child is raised by his or her parents definitely has an impact on how they view the world and other people. Children may be taught that if immigrants are allowed into our country then they will take Americans jobs. People also may feel that immigrants are coming to the U.S. with no job skills or education, therefor they are only adding to our poverty.
[Message #22 09:09:22 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jiadong Li:
What do you think is the prejudice Mexicans have against Americans?
[Message #23 06:10:04 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Alanna Hubbert:
Respond to #5 I agree with Isabel that Candido has too much pride to go back to his family and admit that he failed. Especially considering the fact that he took along another person and promised her as well as her family they would live better lives. He would rather die than go back now
[Message #24 06:10:06 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Isabel Khedr:
I think that the Latinos believe that all white people, or all Americans are racist and that they are rich.
[Message #25 06:13:50 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Heather Hodges:
How can we stop these immigrants from coming into the US without a green card?
Do these immigrants cause more damage to our country or to themselves once they arrive here?
Why are illegal immigrants harming our country?
There are so many people living in poverty down in Mexico that they can't help but feel the need to escape to a country they think is better than theirs. That very well maybe the case, but if these people with no education, no skill, or no means of taking care of themselves come here illegally, it will only add to our poverty because they have a very small chance of finding a good job, "They are peasants, my friend. No education, no resources, no skills - all they've got to offer is a strong back...." (p.101). I chose this quote because i think it has a lot of truth to it, although Jack Jardines could have been a little less rude about it when he called them peasants. They are not peasants but they are poor and just like anyone, they want a fair chance to get a piece of the pie. The immigrants who do go through the correct procedures to obtain their legal citizenship are the ones who deserve to live and work here. They have the skills and education they need, and they can get a long just fine. It is the ones who are crossing illegally that make it hard on our communities and even harder on themselves when they come here, only to be let down.
[Message #26 06:09:50 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jheremy Toledo:
I agree Isabel. Parenting plays a big part in the way a child thinks. And, hopefully, if a child's parents are prejudiced, the child is able to "break the mold".
[Message #27 06:10:50 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jheremy Toledo:
Candido would die than go back, yes. But what about his unborn baby?
[Message #28 06:14:42 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Sharon Elvander:
ANN: I totally agree with you. Too many people, more than less, judge people by what they look like on the outside. If I had that attitude I would have missed out on meeting and becoming friends with a lot of really wonderful people.
[Message #29 06:09:56 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
wesam eteiwi:
I THINK ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ARE VERY BRAVE IN THAT THEY FLEE THEIR OWN SUROUNDINGS IN HOPE OF FINDING THE AMERICAN DREAM. THEY START THEIR SEARCH WITH NO MONEY, ONLY THE CLOTHES ON THEIR BACKS AND NO ENGLISH AT ALL. IF SUCCESS WAS BASED ON SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST, THEN THERE WOULD BE MANY ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS SITTING VERY COMFORTABLY.
[Message #30 06:12:56 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Isabel Khedr:
Candido has too much pride to allow himself to go back to his country, he does think abou this unborn child, and he wants the best for it, but all the same, he wont allow himself to return, no matter the situation.
[Message #31 06:11:06 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jo Untalan:
Americans have a strong dislike to Mexicans because Mexicans are different. They eat different food (tortillas and pinto beans), look different (brown hair w/brown eyes, instead of blonde hair w/blue eyes, and speak a different language from English. Americans I guess figure that it's disrespect that if you are in America that you don't act American.
[Message #32 06:12:16 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
wesam eteiwi:
CANDIDO REALLY NEEDS TO CHILL WITH ALL THE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE HE PUTS ON AMERICA
[Message #33 06:18:27 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Sharon Elvander:
I have to wonder why so many people risk their lives to migrate from their homland to come to America, supposedly the land of opportunity, when often times they have a much harder life once they get here, or so it seems from reading about Candido and America.
[Message #34 09:15:31 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jiadong Li:
It's interesting that Candido and America all missed the life back at home and they sometimes admitted that the life at home is better than the one they are leading right now. So basically the only thing sustaining their staying in the U.S. is that vision, that almost unattainable American dream, and yet they stayed. I wonder whether are they betting their whole lives just on this one dream or not. Yet is it true that the best one can do under their circumstances was pray and do the manual work all their life expecting the unexpected?Is it true that as illegals, the chance of getting successful in America is very very remote, if possible at all?
[Message #35 06:17:14 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Why do most wealthy people think that all minorities are beggars, theives, and poor? I can't help but suspect that we are all uncomfortable, perhaps even guilty, when we consider how much we have. So we're constantly in search of a rationale for why some people deserve more than others. We'd rather be desensitized to other people's plights so that we don't have to witness firsthand other's suffering. For instance, consider how Kyra gets completely cut off from the real world as soon as she enters her car; it becomes her own world, a world where she doesn't have to be cognizant of others. Nor do we want to acknowledge that our own over-consumption inevitably results in others not getting enough. Ironically enough, Delaney thinks that he's in tune with the world's problems, "...it was crazy to think you could detach yourself from the rest of the world, the world of starvation and and loss and the steady relentless degradation of the environment" (p.32). Yet he fails to help out others, as evidenced from his willlingness to pay off Candido with only $20 rather than truly help him out.
[Message #36 06:16:05 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Isabel Khedr:
Ok, but if Americans think that acting "unAmerican" is disrespectful, why participate in celebrating other cultures? For example, why eat Mexican food, or Chinese food, or why celebrate St. Patrick's day when they are not Irish, or Cinco de Mayo?
[Message #37 06:09:13 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
ann ly:
For those of you writing about the American Dream, what does it take to achieve the American Dream? What obstacles exist? What notions are there about undocumented workers/ illegal immigrants?
In response to message #5: I think what it takes to achieve the American Dream is not only hard work nor a good education but knowing where to build your dream. Not all working communities are the same, some place do not have stereotypes or care if you are a minority. Obstacles that many americans will have to go through is accepting the fact that they are and will always be a minority no matter how hard they try to change. Many obstacles include ones ethnicity, gender, financial background, etc...Notions about illegal immigrants are that there are different and that they are all bad because they came here illegaly and that they are most associated with the word "fear". I think this is so dumb because why would we fear someone who is just as civilized as we are but the only difference is that they do no have legal documents? If someone people took the time to think it through they would realize that everyone in America is an immigrant.
[Message #38 06:20:16 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Sharon Elvander:
SAM: I agree, but you have to remeber that he was probably raised that way and feels that that is the only way to make her listen. Also she does not stand up to him and put her foot down to make him stop, a result of the way she was raised.
[Message #39 06:16:16 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
wesam eteiwi:
ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS NEED TO UNDERSTAND THAT SUCCESS IN AMERICA IS GOING TO BE SOMETHING THAT WILL BE VERY HARD TO ACHIEVE WHEN THEY CAN'T EVEN SPEAK THE NATIVE LANGUAGE.
[Message #40 06:17:28 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jheremy Toledo:
How does one act American? Does this mean Americans have a strong dislike ONLY to Mexicans? I think Americans are territorial. We allow immigration, but we do not condone the presence of illegal immigrants in our country. No matter what nationality we are.
[Message #41 06:18:01 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jheremy Toledo:
GOOD POINT ISABEL!!!
[Message #42 06:14:42 AM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Pablo Rios:
where you grow up most definitely has an impact. Just a lil personal example. I have family in east la, inglewwod and in the san fernando valley. When i visit my aunt in the san fernando valley , all of my cousins friends are affraid of me because i speak a lot of spanish dress like a "thug" and present myself how i present myslef. Most of my cousins and their friends are latin, but they call each other white names, act and dress white and look at me funny when i go there because i do not let them call me paul. My name is pablo. My cousin's name is everardo. just like his dad and his dads dad. but all his friends call him eddy. go figure. only one of my cousins in the san fernando valley is ok with me being around. everybody else gets nervouse. on the other hand when my family from the san fernando valley come up to the city they re scared and dont want to go out. They have to leave like to san jose or modesto with other relatives. They say that its too crazy yet nothing has ever happened to them. They re just "not used to seeing to many negros or raza". Coming from the mouth of latin grown up in a "white community"
[Message #43 06:22:39 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Heather Hodges:
I agree with you Isabel. Candido is letting his pride get in the way of not only his own future, but the future of America and their unborn child. If he did go back to Mexico he would have to stay with his aunt, but that would be humiliating for him. How can he think that more humiliating than sleeping in ravine with a seventeen year old pregnant girl?
[Message #44 06:18:07 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
wesam eteiwi:
I DON'T SEE NOTHING WRONG WITH PEOPLE MIGRATING INTO THE US AS LONG IT'S DON'T LEGALLY. BESIDES WASN'T THE US FOUNDED BY SOME IMMGRANTS FROM EUROPE?
[Message #45 06:17:04 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jo Untalan:
Do these immigrants cause more damage to our country or to themselves once they arrive here?
Immigrants, I believe enrich the country's culture. Without Germans we wouldn't have BMW's, Without Chinese we wouldn't have Chinatown in San Francisco, Without the Irish, the U.S. wouldn't celebrate St. Patrick's Day, Without the English, we might not have the government that we have today. So no. I think that immigrants do not do damage to our country, but the country does inflict some damage to the immigrants. Immigrants lose a part of their culture, which hurts.
[Message #46 06:19:43 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Isabel Khedr:
Do you think that we, as America, are more willing to allow people from other countries come here, rather than people from southern countries, such as Mexico or Guatemala?
[Message #47 06:13:06 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
ann ly:
response to #39: I strongly agree that not being able to speak the english language applies to the difficulties in obtaining the American Dream.
[Message #48 06:22:27 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Karen Wong:
The passage about Kyra's desire to remain separate from the rest of the world is on page 73, "Then she was in her car and the rest of the world wasn't...The car was her sanctuary, and with the phone switched off and the waves rolling from the front speakers to the rear and back again, nothing could touch her"(p.73.). If anything, she prefers being in denial than having to confront the world's problems.
[Message #49 06:25:20 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Sharon Elvander:
PABLO: That is really sad that your family seems to be losing touch with who they are. Them calling you a thug is a sterotype, "Judging a book by it's cover", people do that to my boyfriend a lot too.
[Message #50 06:23:53 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Karen Wong:
A symbol of racism that keeps recurring is that of fences in all of their forms.
[Message #51 06:19:48 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jo Untalan:
Ok, but if Americans think that acting "unAmerican" is disrespectful, why participate in celebrating other cultures? For example, why eat Mexican food, or Chinese food, or why celebrate St. Patrick's day when they are not Irish, or Cinco de Mayo?
-Americans only celebrate the fun aspects of other cultures, but it's no fun when a minority has the job that you were supposed to have, or the house you wanted, but you couldn't have because they had a higher offer.
[Message #52 06:26:10 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Heather Hodges:
When I used to hear "illeagal alien" I USED to think of a Latin American that had came through the "Totilla Cutain", but after studying this subject further I have realized that was a very close minded way to think.
[Message #53 06:21:19 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
wesam eteiwi:
CANDIDO NEEDS TO HAVE ANOTHER ENCOUNTER WITH DELANEY AND TAKE OUT SOME OF HIS AGGRESSION ON TO HIM. DELANEY SOUNDS LIKE A REAL WHIMP AND REALLY NEEDS A BEAT DOWN
[Message #54 06:24:02 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Alanna Hubbert:
Response to #34 I think the chances for illegal immigrants finding success is very slim. Without proof of citizenship you cannot attain things like a drivers license, social security number, blah, blah, and you need all these things to even get started. The opportunity for a successfull job is out because nobody would hire a person who hasen't had a certain amount of education nor would someone hire a person they know they could get in trouble for. All the elements to create success are missing so I think it would be extremly hard to make it.
[Message #55 09:24:07 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jiadong Li:
in response to #35:
Americans have the tendency to accept everything "the way it is" with a "cool" and "cynical" expression. Therefore, racism is acceptted, and prejudice is acceptted. Those racism and prejudice are then passed on to the younger generation, who would grow up to view Mexicans with fear. It's sad.
[Message #56 06:19:57 AM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Pablo Rios:
it seems like we celebrate diversity for a day. chineese new year, cinco de mayo, carnaval, st pattricks day and so on and then its back to normal. none of which are hollidays, but fourth of july.
[Message #57 06:27:02 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Karen Wong:
The debate you cite on page 102, Sam, is ripe with opportunities for analysis. To identify the sources of prejudice, pay careful attention to Jack Jardine's notions. When proposition 187 was on the ballot, many of these same fears were expressed. It turns out that undocumented workers rarely used city services; they were more along the lines of Candido, who feared being deported. Also, many undocumented workers pay into the social security system with fake social security numbers, so while they pay into the system, they never get anything back. Regarding hte sort of blue collar jobs that undocumented workers are likely to do, would anyone else want these sorts of jobs?
[Message #58 06:27:40 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Karen Wong:
In addition to Candido's ego, they didn't have enough resources to go home even if they wanted to.
[Message #59 06:29:43 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Sharon Elvander:
All racism and predjudices against any and all races, sexes or religions are wrong and I do believe that they all begin with ignorance. Knowledge is definetly power. If we all educate our children on different religions and cultures then they will not develop that hatred and fear many kids grow to have.
[Message #60 06:28:44 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Isabel, good question you're raising about the language that is used: illegal immigrants/illegal aliens versus undocumented workers. Even though we're referring to the same sort of person, what is the different connotation?
[Message #61 06:26:34 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jheremy Toledo:
Response to Alanna #54: i totally agree. It makes the chances of making it seem more impossible. Especially now, in our time, diplomas and degrees are extremely crucial. And this makes it even worse.
[Message #62 06:20:13 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
ann ly:
in response to pablo #42: I have to agree with what you said about your cousins being terrified going out into the city but it seems to me that not only are they afraid but they have assumptions of their own about you just because you present yourself differently. they seem to be afraid of your appearance and right away they don't want to have anything to do with you. but as long as you know that there is nothing wrong with you than you know its your cousins that have a problem. in a way i understand the way they feel because i was raised in a community where there were all white peopel so many people believed i was so called "white washed". later when i moved into the city i was very much afraid because my surroundings and the people around be are so different and unfamiliar that it made me feel uncomfortable. But i soon learned to like the city very much and learned on my own that making assumptions about a person or a place is wrong becuase i am not phsycic.
[Message #63 06:31:16 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Heather Hodges:
I grew up in a very racist family and I will admit until I grew up and got to know people for who they are inside I used to be predjudice too. I was always afraid to talk to kids that were not white, because my grandmother told me that they would get me no where in life. As i grew up I realized that she came from a time when racisim was in full swing and she is very old ab\nd set in her ways. When i was old enough to realize it was wrong to think like that i would give my grandma a hard time about it. Now I realize to shut my mouth when i am around her because she still feels this way, and even though i don't I don't voice my opinions to her anymore. Although i does make me angry when i hear her make a racist remark.
[Message #64 06:26:20 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
wesam eteiwi:
ANSWER TO WONG'S REPLY: I'M PRETTY SURE THAT NOBODY WANTS THOSE BLUE COLLAR JOBS BUT I BET THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT AMERICANS WON'T WORK THOSE JOBS. DOES A JANITOR REALLY WANT TO BE A JANITOR? I SERIOUSLY DON'T THINK SO BUT HE IS STUCK WITH THAT OCCUPATION BECAUSE THAT IS WERE HIS LIFE HAS LED HIM.
[Message #65 06:29:53 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Jack Jardine and Delaney appear to be very different, yet in some ways, are they similar? Is Delaney a racist?
[Message #66 09:29:25 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jiadong Li:
I agree with Message #51. When it comes to fun and joy and exotic costumes, Americans would put a smile on their faces and celebrate. When it comes to issues concerning themselves, harming themselves, the Americans would put on yet another look. This habit has been around for centuries already!! Look at the immigration tide the strike staged by native workers, look at red scare, look at Chinese exclusionary Act and Japanese relocation! And now the Mexican illegals! And we are still eating sushi and Mexican food, celebrating Chinese new year, just like Jo and Pablo said, aren't we?
[Message #67 06:31:01 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Karen Wong:
What are the stereotypes of undocumented workers, according to characters in the book?
[Message #68 06:29:27 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Isabel Khedr:
I think that Delany doesnt believe himself to be racsit, yet he finds himself angry at all Latinos when he sees them in the streets and when he sees the man in the baseball cap, he automatically assumes that hes there to do wrong
[Message #69 06:23:26 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
ann ly:
response to #63 Heather: I am glad that you feel this way now and that you learned on your own what was the right thing to do. Many people are manipulated into thinking one way when someone close to them teaches it is correct when sometimes it is very wrong.
[Message #70 06:34:03 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Sharon Elvander:
I don't think that Delaney is racist, but maybe confused. He wants to stick up for immigrants when Jack is talking down on them. Although we do find him blaming the trash in the ravine on the Mexicans and he gets angry at all the Latinos he sees in the streets. Maybe a small part of him is racist, but he is in denial.
[Message #71 06:29:20 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
wesam eteiwi:
I KNOW THAT ALL THE SOCIAL SECURITY ISSUES COULD BE BIAS IN SOME WAYS BECASUE I KNOW PEOPLE THAT ARE ACTUALLY RIPPING OFF THE US BY CLAMING SOCIAL SECURITY IN NUMEROUS ANONAMOUS NAMES TO RECIVE MORE THAN ONE OR TWO CHECK FROM THE COUNRTY. THEY JUST LOOK AT IT AS GETTING EVEN WITH THE SYSYTEM.
[Message #72 06:32:57 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Sharon, #21, what is an instance from the novel that supports your theory?
[Message #73 06:31:28 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Alanna Hubbert:
yes Sharon, I agree 100% that ignorance is the stem to prejudice. I strongly believe that the only way to stop it is to let younger generations know there is nothing to fear.
[Message #75 06:34:07 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Allana and Isabel, does Candido have an option of going back to Mexico? What opportunies are available there?
[Message #76 06:29:51 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jo Untalan:
Delaney I believe is not a racist, he just is one of those guys, who goes with the flow. If his wife were some sort of open-minded radical, no doubt he would follow her beliefs. He said that he and Kyra had a lot in common. (Boyle, 1995, p. 34). Did he really have a lot in common with her or did he just adapt to her? First thing he did when he hit Candido was call Kyra.
[Message #77 06:28:35 AM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Pablo Rios:
it seems to me that this country will not let starving people looking for a better way of life, like my father who came to this country because he had lost two kids because he had no money to pay doctors, but it will let in political refugees who may have had money back in their country, but are having problems with their govt. In latin american countries the govt is a theif. they steal money and give nothing to the people letting them live slums so they have to come to this country. They are basically leaving to escape the situations provided them by their govt. Would they not be considered political refugees too
[Message #78 06:33:07 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jheremy Toledo:
in a personal issue SAM, my social security number was stolen. I found out it was being used under another name back when i was 11 yrs. old. This person opened a checking account and had bad credit. When i tried to open a account, the told me i had insufficient funds. how crazy... ô¿ô
[Message #79 06:35:37 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Interesting question about the stereotypes Mexicans have of Americans. Remember when America comes across the white woman who is competing with her for a job?
[Message #80 09:34:23 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jiadong Li:
response to #75:
The option is always there, except that Candido and America are going to face humiliation back home, which the proud Candido might not be able to withstand. However, if Candido is able to think it through clearly, going back to Mexico is patently an option.
[Message #81 06:36:02 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Can you make any connections between this novel and Savages?
[Message #82 06:34:47 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Alanna Hubbert:
sam you should tell those people they are rude.
[Message #83 06:31:19 AM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Pablo Rios:
to ann ly:i may look a certain way and because of the way i grew up i may act a certain way, but go to school and work full time-graveyard, im trying to do the right thing just like everybody else
[Message #84 06:36:03 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jheremy Toledo:
We talked about the stereotypes of the Huaorani as well. They may not be the SAME stereotypes, but there are still stereotypes of these different people and America.
[Message #85 06:36:54 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Alanna Hubbert:
Yes, Candido does have an option to go back to Mexico, but nothing is there for him besides the chances of becoming an alcoholic again. His pride went away long ago with his first wife, so going back to Mexico will be just as bad for him.
[Message #86 06:34:30 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jo Untalan:
The stereotypes of undocumented workers, according to characters in the book are that they are go to houses and steal, are dangerous to subarbia with their barbaric way, why would you want a next door neighbor who had a place for their chickens, and they were stupid (Candido only took twenty dollars when he was hit by Delaney).
[Message #87 06:33:14 AM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Pablo Rios:
according to thebook all undocumented workers sere latino. You know this when America walks in to the labor hall and says she felt at home
[Message #88 06:41:01 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Heather Hodges:
I think Delany is racist in a way because her refers to Candido as a "stupid immigrant". It makes him angry to see that they are camping in the ravine, he is a naturalist so whatever hurts the enviornment bothers him. I think Delany should realize that candido isn't trying to harm his precious canyon but he needs to make a home for him and America.
[Message #89 09:37:41 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jiadong Li:
Pablo brought up an interesting point. America is famous of accepting refugees with "kind heart" and she is even more famous of her "democracy for everyone and pursuit of happiness and ... yadayadaya". Yet she can not prevent her own people from starving, and she treated the illegal but starving immigrants with such cruelty that doesn't fit her humanitarian outlook. Is she a hypocrit? Or what?
[Message #90 06:41:07 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Sharon Elvander:
Anwer to Ms. Wong: Jack Jardine speaking to Delaney" They're peasants....no education, no resources, no skills-all they've got to offer is a strong back, and the irony is we need fewer and fewer strong backs every day."(p. 101) These are the things that Jack is teaching to Jack junior, and that is why he goes down into the ravine and destroys all of Candido and Americas things, graffitying the wall with the racist words "BEANERS DIE"
[Message #91 06:41:22 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Heather Hodges:
Does anyone think it is ironic that her name is AMERICA?
[Message #92 06:39:39 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Karen Wong:
I can't help but think that multinational corporations are somewhat to blame for what is happening. There's Bill, one of Kyra's clients, who is filthy rich as president of Pacific Rim Investments. You could infer that he has become wealthy by exploiting the cheap labor in Asian countries, which in turn leads to the phenomena of the working poor. If Asian countries were sharing the same continental land mass as Mexico and Latin America, I wonder if the US would experience a similar situation of undocumented workers, only Asian.
[Message #93 06:37:48 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jheremy Toledo:
YEAH! why do you think that her name is America?
[Message #94 06:37:04 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
wesam eteiwi:
THAT IS WEIRD THAT HER NAME IS AMERICA
[Message #95 06:31:49 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
ann ly:
i feel that there may be hope for Candido and America because if they have a child born in the states they should be able to get legal documents easier than others since their child would automatically become a citizen
[Message #96 06:41:05 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Karen Wong:
True, Sam, Candido's bouts of violence are disturbing. Why is he lashing out? What is he threatened by?
[Message #97 06:40:22 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Alanna Hubbert:
I don't believe Delaney is a racist, I believe he doesn't know how to have his own opinion, especially concerning racism. Everyone around him has a diversion towards other races and he lets them influence his way of thinking...
[Message #98 06:44:09 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Heather Hodges:
I think the author did that for an ironic twist. Here she is struggling to keep her family alive in the almighty "America", and all it is, is a let down after a let down for them.
[Message #99 06:39:14 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
wesam eteiwi:
I THINK HE IS THREATENED BY AMERICA NOT ACCEPTING HIS MANHOOD, THAT HE IS THE HEAD OF WHAT EVER HOUSEHOLD THEY GOT AND HE IS THE AUTHORITY. THAT IS USUALLY HOW OLDER FASHIONED PEOPLE LOOK AT THINGS
[Message #100 06:40:53 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Isabel Khedr:
long ago, i watched a news special on children born here whose parents were illegal, the fact is, these children must live in mexico, but if the want to come to school, they have to take a bus over the border. They are legally american citizens, however, their parents are not
[Message #101 06:44:19 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Sharon Elvander:
Stereotypes in the book about undocumented workers is that they are all thieves, gang bangers, or dirty bums. People are afraid of them or they want to hurt them. They want these illegal immigrants out of the U.S. because Americans have a hard enough time finding jobs with out them here.
[Message #102 09:41:18 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jiadong Li:
#92, Ms Wong, you are addressing the essential problem of capitalism, not just multinational corporations! The overproduction and underconsumption in the society as a whole, versus the exploitations and overconsumption of the top several percent of the society, those two factors contribute to the phenomena such as tortilla curtain!!! And how many of us question the system instead of the victims??
[Message #103 06:38:32 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jo Untalan:
The connection between The Tortilla Curtain and Savages was that they talked about the injustices that people, who are ignorant about contemporary standards of living (based on U.S. fundamentals), faced such being taking advantage on as cheap labor.
[Message #104 06:43:55 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Karen Wong:
True, Pablo, that is odd, yet on the other hand, assimilating to the dominant culture's ideal alleviates the fear of otherness, of difference. Fear often fuels prejudice.
[Message #105 09:42:47 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jiadong Li:
Ann #95: you know that we don't usually give birth to children on our own, right? we usually need doctor, and ... I think Candido and America can't afford that much.
[Message #106 06:42:10 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jheremy Toledo:
I don't understand Candido at times. Here he is...half-dead... and he has too much pride to go home or to let America work. I think he should swallow his pride and stop trying to be the breadwinner. BABY-STEPS!
[Message #107 06:41:37 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
wesam eteiwi:
I REALLY WOULD LIKE TO ACTUALLY SEE THE AREA CANDIDO AND AMERICA CALL HOME. I'M HAVING PROBLEMS PICTURING THE AREA.
[Message #108 06:44:51 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Are the undocumented workers in this novel contributing to the demise of America?
[Message #109 09:44:12 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Jiadong Li:
to #108: No. America is contributing to the demise of poor workers.
[Message #110 06:40:07 AM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Pablo Rios:
fear mrs wong is the main fuel for prejudice. fear of that black guy taking your purse. fear for that old car with the thump thump, smoked windows and mexican gangbangers in it ready to rob or kill, fear of immigrants taking all the jobs and benefits from americans
[Message #111 06:38:22 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
ann ly:
in response to lipton #105: Although Candido and America do not have money for a doctor I think that from where they are they might have given birth at home and there was no medical facilities like the ones here. Rather I feel that they are worried about giving birth to their child in the canyon.
[Message #112 06:46:06 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Alanna Hubbert:
Response to #106.yep Jheremy I totally agree. He really ought to just let his guard down and go back home. At least for America's sake. She needs to be with her family and she really needs to be taken care of better considering she has life growing inside of her.
[Message #113 06:49:21 PM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Sharon Elvander:
JO: #103 true, but another similarity that I see is that of the way so many people feared the Huaorani because they judged them for who they were on the outside and didn't consider their circumstances.
[Message #114 06:43:20 AM, Monday, May 08, 2000]
Pablo Rios:
if candido is so worried about his wife he best get off his ass or give up his pride i do agree with all of y'all
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[Message #2 12:06:27 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Yasuko Kobayashi:
Q 1: Why do American's have a negative attitude towards immigrants?
A 1: It's amazing how American citizens forget that immigrants are the roots to the existence of this country. When we think of immigrants (illegal or not) we often think of unskilled, uneducated, "low-class" people. Jack proves as a perfect example when he said, "The ones coming in through the Tortilla Curtain down there, those are the ones that are killing us. They're peasants, my friend. No education, no resources, no skills" (page 101). When we do legally accept immigrants we act as if we are doing them a huge favor. We can offer so many opportunities for these people, yet we do not want to be burdened with these people or their problems. We worry wo much about money and budgets that we forget about human rights. When Jack said, "The illegals in San Diego County contributed seventy million in tax revenues and at the same time they used up two hundred and forty million in services - welfare, emergency care, schooling and the like. You want to pay for that? And for the crime that comes with it?" (page 102), I couldn't believe what this man was saying! He was complaining about money that we had to pay for the welfare of these people. Just because these people are illegal immigrants, does it mean that we should not help them meet their basic needs for survival?
Q 2: How can these immigrants ever attain the "American Dream"?
Q 3: Illegal immigrants do not have the basic human rights. For example, receive medical care, legal representation, etc. Although these people are living in the US illegally, shouldn't we still care for the basic human rights of these people?
[Message #3 01:12:10 PM, Wednesday, May 10, 2000]
Thanh Tran:
1) Why did Delaney has strong argument about immigrant?
2) Is that being more success, people lose more human being?
Yes, take Delaney wife is an example. She's a successful woman. She's living in the big house, enough of necessities. That's what she got from working hard. She has the right to enjoy what she got. But when her husband told her that he was hit a man, she just ask :"did you told Jack?". And then, she forgot what happen. Since then, she went back home, she has never remind her husband about what responsibilities he has to face. It sounds like he just hit a rock on the treat or something.
3) Is that true that there will be no chance for people lacking language communication and live illegal in U.S?
Yes, take America for example, she wants to go to works but she didn't know how to talk with her boss. She didn't know how to ask him for a glove that she need. She was wonder that would she get pay more if she work more than he expected. If she knows how to communicate with that man, she could negotiate the price like Mary does.
[Message #4 01:10:30 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Karen Wong:
I haven't yet been able to fully articulate this theme, but I can't help but dwell on how the conflicts in nature are parallel to the conflicts in the characters' lives. For instance, Delaney and Kyra had erected a six foot fence, yet they were unable to keep the coyote out of their yard, and so as a result Secherevall was eaten. Similarly, the inhabitants of Arroyo Blanco think that by erecting a fence, they will be able to keep crime out of their neighborhood up in the hills. Many of them allude to how they moved up there to get away from the crime, which they assume is perpetuated by the minority groups. Kyra recalls some of her clients feeling this way, but well aware that their sentiments were offensive, and so they would never say it as such "They all wanted something out of the way, something rustic, rural, safe-- something removed from people of whatever class and color, but particularly from the hordes of immigrants pouring in from Mexico and Central America, from Dubai, Burundi and Lithuania, from Asia and India and everywhere else in the known world. Brown people. People in saris, serapes and kaffiyehs" (p. 107). They think that they can isolate themselves from this diversity that they assume poses some threat to their quality of life, and yet right in their midst, they are in danger, but not from these "hordes of immigrants." The danger lies from within, the assumptions they make of peole based on their skin color. They're willing to party with this white-collar criminal who shares a similar lifestyle (and skin color) with them, and yet they're afraid that those different from them pose a threat. I find that attitude odd, if not entirely ironic. They fail to recognize that to maintain their quality of life, they necessarily depend on all these brown masses who serve their needs: the valet, the post-hole diggers, the gardeners, the maids, the Buddha-scrubbers...
[Message #5 01:09:38 PM, Wednesday, May 10, 2000]
Melanie Gadwah:
What kind of impact does illegal immigration have on the environment?
Delaney went for one of his usual hikes hoping to find peace and solitude amongst the trees, hills and streams. But when he arrived, he found it destroyed. Illegal immigrants were camping out in the woods. "Not two hundred feet from the road, and here they were, brazen, thoughtless, camping under the very nose of the authorities...Refuse everywhere. Cans, bottles, the shucked wrappers of ready-made sandwiches and burritos, toilet paper, magazines-all of it Scattered across the ground as if dropped there by a dying wind."(p112)
Does Delaney really support the immigrants from Mexico or is he just as racist as others like Jack and Jack Jr.?
Even though Delaney sticks up for the immigrants from Mexico, he is still very racist. After listening to Jack speak about taking control of the borders and getting rid of the immigrants, he states, "I can't believe you...,Do you realize what you are saying,? Immigrants are the lifeblood of this country-we're a nation of immigrants-and neither of us would be standing here today if it wasn't."(p101) After this conversation that seemed to aggravate Delaney, he witnessed Jack and Jack jr. harassing an injured mexican and he ignored it. He states "His impulse was to intercede, to put an end to it, and yet in some perverse way he wanted to see this dark alien little man crushed and obliterated, out of his life forever."
Is the fact that the illegal immigrants alter his life, the reason why Delaney is becoming racist or was he always this way?
[Message #6 01:13:30 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Yasuko, that conversation which you cite in chapter seven is ripe for discussion. When I studied up on this topic because of Proposition 187, I discovered that many undocumented workers pay into social security with fake numbers, and yet because these are fake numbers, they'll never get the chance to collect once they reach old age. Also, if Candido is representative of many undocumented workers, then I doubt that they are even using the health services for fear of being deported. Instead, they'll go only of their illness is life-threatening.
[Message #7 01:09:17 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
aminul alikhan:
QUIZ PROMPT: The Tortilla Curtain raises many questions about these issues:
immigration:
Why does US have such strict immigration rules?
Why don't we let in the people that want to migrate to US?
Why are some countries favored over others as far as immigration is concerned?
Why don't we let the people that want to migrant to US?
We should let in all the people that want to migrate to US.
The first thing that comes to mind is that everyone will end up coming to us. That is not true because the poor do not have money to pay for the fees needed for the application. One has to be able to read and write to fill out the forms. You may be thinking that the poor can have someone else fill the forms for them. Which is true but the still need to ask themselves what would they do when they come to US. One needs to have a basic education to be able to communicate
in english and be able to find a job to survive. So I don't think everyone will end up migrating to US. We control as to how many people come in so that we have jobs for our citizens first and than let the immigrants come in to fill in the labor market that locally labor is not available for or for jobs that no one wants to do. There will be some low literate people come into the country. THe low educated people as we see in the Tortilla Curtains The Mexicans that hang around outside of busy area to get jobs. "Here they wanted to be conspicuous only to the right people, the people who needed cheap labor of the day, the afternoon, the hour." Page 158. THis people even though they have low education,they are hustling for jobs. They are not on welfare asking government to help them. They are helping themselves. Most of the Mexicans though may be illegal that we encounter in the book. If we have a program where we can help the newly arrived immigrants for at 3-6months so they can get on their feet we will not have any of the illegal immigration problem. The pollution and crime they commit to merely survive. Also immigrant applicants wont get so impatient waiting for 10-15 years to be able to come to this country legally. That is way the Mexicans seek across the border.
[Message #8 01:18:02 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Thanh, comment #3, very sensitive point you make about the cost of success. Kyra has all the trappings of success, and yet she seems incredibly shallow. All she cares about is their own situation; she doesn't even bother to ask about the man whom her husband has just ran over with his car! She throws a fit over the dog that might overheat in the car, and yet nary an inquiry for the accident victim.
[Message #9 01:21:15 PM, Wednesday, May 10, 2000]
Thanh Tran:
Nice quote on Q1, Yas. I think most of American think that immigrant are bad. Jack is just the one who said that out loud. It's true that most immigrant people came here just stay home and get welfare. The Gov just took the money of those people who pay taxes and gave it to immigrant people. Some of them after receive welfare money, they went out and work, they get pay by cash and they didn't pay any taxes at all.
[Message #10 12:17:41 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Yasuko Kobayashi:
The reason why the US has such strict immigration rules is because are country is always concerned with "how much money we have to pay" for these immigrants. We live in a capitalistic world, where everything is the $$$$$$$$.
[Message #11 01:23:06 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Janely Ramos:
1. How does Delaney feel about the trash that he found (due to whom, he assumes, the mexican immigrants)while hiking along the state park? And does this change how he feels toward mexicans?
2. How does Kyra feel about the dog who was locked up in the car?
3. How does Delaney react to the way the white men treated Candido while he was on his way out of the grocery store? How does he feel about Candido?
1. Delaney felt mad about the campsite that he found while hiking ( thinking that he could take a relaxing walk ;free from stress of daily life; time to just explore nature) He mentions ," Wasn't it enough that they'd degraded the better part of the planet, paved over the land and saturated the landfills till they'd created whole new cordilleras of garbage?" (p.112) To him, seeing that garbage was worse than" graffiti, worse than anything". I imagine that he felt as if soon, there will be a day when he won't find a nice place to walk ; ;that these illegal immigrants are marking territory everywhere when it doesn't belong to them and that he is the one paying for it.
[Message #12 01:21:49 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Being proficient in a language is really important. Candido, independent in so many ways, is reduced to a child when he gets stuck in Oregon, limited to his one word, "Pleese" (p. 170). Fortunately he is helped by the huge farmer, hardly the stereotypical red-neck farmer, and his neighbor, Graciela Herrera, who helps him buy a ticket. I'm very attuned to the power of language; just last summer, when I was in Mexico, I was reduced to a second- year old, having only that proficiency at my disposal. I felt really out of touch, but at least I found some security in knowing that I'd be back in the US in a couple of weeks. Poor America and Candido don't have that luxury.
[Message #13 12:23:47 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Yasuko Kobayashi:
What's really scary is the fact that these illegal immigrants are treated like animals. They have no rights, no freedom, no security. The immigrants believe that they will be able to achieve success, or the "American Dream", but from our perspective this isn't true. It seems that they would be better off living in their country.
[Message #14 01:19:14 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
aminul alikhan:
I agree with you Karen, English is a second language to me even though I learnt it mainly in school I still have difficulty sometimes communicating and understandings things clearly. Language is a big barrier as you experienced in Mexico. I don't think a lot of English speakers realize this fact.
[Message #15 01:28:55 PM, Wednesday, May 10, 2000]
Thanh Tran:
That's nothing call luxury. America hope isn't too much. She just wish that she could have a house with 4 walls, a bathroom that she could use whenever she wants. Is that too much to ask?
[Message #16 01:24:44 PM, Wednesday, May 10, 2000]
Melanie Gadwah:
I agree with Yasuko it seems they would be better off in their country
[Message #17 01:30:10 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Janely Ramos:
I felt bad for America who was raped especially because she had no one to turn to (no rights). Even if she had been raped where there had been people around, still, it would have been hard for. She would have had to face the issue of being caught and being sent back to Mexico.
[Message #18 01:29:47 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
danielle turner:
We do take it for granted that a whole lot of other countries in the world use english as their second language. So when we go over to france we expect that they will know english. Most of us don't even try to learn their language.
[Message #19 01:21:50 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
aminul alikhan:
If they are better off in their own country why did they come here in the 1st place?
[Message #20 12:27:13 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Yasuko Kobayashi:
They come here because the world believes that America is a place of opportunity. This is not true.
[Message #22 01:31:05 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
danielle turner:
They were under the impression that America is such a wonderful place. We all have the freedom to do what we please. They come to America hoping to do good for their family.
[Message #23 12:28:07 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Yasuko Kobayashi:
No one talks about the racism that they might have to face, nor the kind of opportunity that is given to them.
[Message #24 01:27:28 PM, Wednesday, May 10, 2000]
Melanie Gadwah:
they think things will come easier to them but they really have to start from the bottom and work their way up. Many cases that is not achieved
[Message #25 01:24:34 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
aminul alikhan:
I think they come here because their family and friends probably tell them how much money they can make even though they are illegal. That's why America & Candido are taking their chance. Their child will also become US citizen ones its born. So will they automatically get their citizenship?
[Message #26 01:32:58 PM, Wednesday, May 10, 2000]
Thanh Tran:
#13. I don't think so. Some of them don't know that they could get the bad treatment when they came to U.S. The only thing they know is "that's the land of chances". Although get treated like animal but it better than living in their country. .
[Message #27 12:30:03 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Yasuko Kobayashi:
All these immigrants that come here not only have a difficult time finding opportunities, after they find something they then have to overcome being a minority trying to achieve the "American Dream". Its one obstacle after the other.
[Message #29 01:26:42 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
aminul alikhan:
I agree with you Than, Taking chances in US -rich country is better than in poor Mexico. Taking chances here will get them at least somewhere because we do have more resources for the poor.
[Message #30 12:31:23 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Yasuko Kobayashi:
America being the "land of opportunity" blinds these people.
[Message #31 01:35:52 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Janely Ramos:
I agree with Yasuko.
[Message #32 01:33:37 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Do you think that the American quality of life can be maintained if we were to boot out all illegal immigrants? Why or why not?
[Message #33 01:36:47 PM, Wednesday, May 10, 2000]
Thanh Tran:
#25. Yes, I think so Compare with my country, 8 hours u work in US = a month income of a family. That's the reason why they try to came here.
[Message #34 01:37:13 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Janely Ramos:
America, wonders many times in the book why she's degraded in AMerica while in Mexico, she was free from insult.
[Message #35 12:33:31 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Yasuko Kobayashi:
Standard of poor in Mexico, and in the US is very different. But since we are the "leading nation in accepting immigrants", why can't we make it better for these people?
[Message #36 12:33:56 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Yasuko Kobayashi:
Everyone knows the problems, but no one does anything about it.
[Message #37 01:29:36 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
aminul alikhan:
Its a trade off. Are you better off with more money or worry about being discriminated against. At least one thing is in their favor that most cases they can make more money here than in their own country. THey can always go back once they are better off. But why go back. We need to
teach American public that other races are just as human as anybody else and if given opportunity we can be just as equal to the other person.
[Message #38 01:35:49 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Karen Wong:
What opportunities are available to them in their own country, Mexico?
[Message #39 12:35:11 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Yasuko Kobayashi:
Look at Candido, he can't even get medical help when he got hit by the car. He lives in fear of being deported.
[Message #40 01:39:34 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Janely Ramos:
Maybe our quality of life will be better but it might be a different story for the wealthy. Like you said Ms. Wong, they depend on them for gardening, for keeping their houses in order, and for putting up their fences.
[Message #41 01:31:36 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
aminul alikhan:
If we sent all illegals back we will have jobs that will go unfilled as far as menial task because no one is suppose to hire an illegal immigrant. I think they should be given a chance.
[Message #42 12:36:18 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Yasuko Kobayashi:
These people are putting their life in danger, to put up fences, being house keepers, gardeners.
[Message #43 01:37:20 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Janely, that's an astute point. American (and any other undocumented worker for that matter) has no legal rights, and so even when she has been attacked and violated, she has no legal recourse. Candido is stuck in the same boat, too, asking Delaney only for money because he realize that he'd never have the opportunity to sue Delaney in a court of law despite Delaney clearly being at fault.
[Message #44 01:40:34 PM, Wednesday, May 10, 2000]
Thanh Tran:
#38. AT least in Mexica they still have house and their family. They don't have to live like rat near the stream
[Message #45 01:40:59 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Janely Ramos:
I think that America has a dream that will be hard to reach or one that she might never reach.
[Message #46 01:38:52 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Danielle, true, and even in this country, we have this same attitude about language. That we expect people in other countries to speak English is silly enough. But even in this country, we insist that everyone speak English. Meanwhile, in so many other countries in the world, the children grow up bilingual. Friends of mine from Belgium speak Flemish, French, German, and English.
[Message #47 01:37:42 PM, Wednesday, May 10, 2000]
Melanie Gadwah:
In their own country they can walk down the street with out fear of being caught and deported, they can live in a house and not have to hide out in the woods, and they could get jobs easier because there would be better communication
[Message #48 01:34:15 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
aminul alikhan:
I don't think many opportunities are available in their own country thats why they choose to take the chance of crossing the dangerous border to come to US> On the other hand they may have families that give them stories that if you work hard here you will be a rich person. THis might lure the illegals in. as the saying goes "Streets are laced with gold in US".
[Message #49 01:43:48 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Janely Ramos:
I also feel that it's pretty dangerous for illegal immigrants to be here.( Dangerous for us). After reading the part about America being raped, I feel that we could be victims to. And the bad part about that is that illegal criminals have no i.d..
[Message #50 12:41:02 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Yasuko Kobayashi:
I think the illegals are forced to crime (not rape but robbery, etc). Because they cannot find jobs to survive, they have to turn to other things that will make money.
[Message #51 01:40:12 PM, Wednesday, May 10, 2000]
Melanie Gadwah:
Under the right circumstances immigrants have opportunities, but because they come over here with nothing it is very hard to succeed
[Message #52 12:41:43 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Yasuko Kobayashi:
I think if I was starving and had no money, I would have to turn to stealing or something....just to get something to eat. Just imagine, no money, no job, no family, don't speak the language. I would be freaking out.
[Message #54 01:38:20 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
aminul alikhan:
Criminals are everywhere whether one is legal or illegal. Are you saying that only illegal immigrants commit crime. On the contrary illegals mostly likely will not commit crime because they do not want to be deported.
[Message #55 12:43:29 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Yasuko Kobayashi:
No I'm talking about the illegal immigrants that do commit crimes
[Message #56 01:47:34 PM, Wednesday, May 10, 2000]
Thanh Tran:
#51. yes, it's true. Remember Curtis Chang said? The rich become richer and have more power. They can use the money they got to invest. The poor people, they have nothing to eat, so how can they get "success". Unless they win CA lottery.
[Message #57 12:45:21 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Yasuko Kobayashi:
Illegal immigrants that do find jobs end up living in poor areas of cities. Some commit crimes some don't. But many Americans think that they do because they live in high crime area. Thy blame the illegal immigrants, using them as a scapegoat.
[Message #58 01:49:24 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Janely Ramos:
It's funny how it seems as though within the illegal immigrant population itself, they have to fight like dogs amongst (sp?) each other to get a job, to make money, and to protect their territory. Life is hard for them!
[Message #59 01:46:35 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Karen Wong:
True, Aminul, #41. There seems to be this unsaid fear that they'll take away all of the jobs, but most of your average Americans aren't willing to do these jobs. Think of America, who is clearly working with some sort of toxic fluid; her work conditions would give anybody pause. Yet she endures with these conditions because she is on the brink of starvation. We have so many similar situations: laborers in the fields, garment employees in the sweatshops peppering places like the Mission and Chinatown. But these people have no legal recourse nor do they have any means to establish a union. Exploitation drives the money machine because it seems as if choices always boil down to the profit margin.
[Message #60 01:41:00 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
aminul alikhan:
It is a scary thought to come to a big country and take such chances. Remember they had money but they got robbed on the border. If they had that money they would have being a little bit ahead of the game. IF all illegals had such a hard time why so many would take this chance?
[Message #61 01:47:58 PM, Tuesday, May 09, 2000]
Karen Wong:
Yes, Aminul, many undocumented workers come because of these grandiose notions about the US. Even the earliest Chinese immigrants thought of the US as Gaam San, Gold Mountain. They came here only to face racism head on and exploitation of their labor in the railroads, etc.